In regards to Mar-A-Lago Price tag and Trumps fraud "trial".

Not with the liens that currently exist . . . which Trump wasn't disclosing.

There are many multi-billionaires who could afford to own my 2010 Yaris. That doesn't make it worth billions.

Yes . . . as an asset of a CRIMINALLY FRAUDULENT ORGANIZATION.

You have such colorful nicknames for objective realty.

Bwahahaha! YOU MUST SHUT YOUR EYES, FOR THAT IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN SEE. YOU WILL BE BLIND IF YOU LOOK AT FACTS! TURN OFF YOUR BRAIN! ALL HAIL TRUMP! ORANGE MAN GOD!

 

Because tax assessed value has minimal attachment to what something can be sold for. Typically, tax assessed value is 50% or less of appraised value. Typically, there are rules in place that limit the dollar value that tax assessed increases can change over a given period of time. There are a lot of local regulations that create a gigantic difference between tax assessed versus actual value. Even if a property is bought today which precisely establishes its actual value, the tax assessed value would be but a tiny fraction of the actual value. Another illustration of the difference would be if you were to have Elvis Presley's childhood home, and lets say it is a little shack where all of the comps sell for $10k, people would be willing to pay far more because it is his childhood home; this change in value based on Elvis' name would NOT be calculated in tax assessed value.

The bottom line is that tax assessed value is nothing like actual value. The two things are calculated in vastly different ways. For this reason, it is wholly possible to legitimately argue that tax assessed value is too high while also arguing that actual value is too low.

You may be able to convince someone that is ignorant of the difference between these two concepts that arguing both sides cannot legitimately be done without lying, but to someone with a firm grip on the two different types of valuations, there is nothing contradictory even slightly about that disparity. It is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

Trying to have a reasonable debate with you is impossible. Your mind is never changed by the facts. You can't reason with an idealogue

 

Interesting. So, in your estimation is 50% greater than or less than 2,000%?

The bottom line is that Trump lied in order to get the value he wanted. Which is illegal. And he did this for many, many years across many, many properties. He and his lawyers are the only ones pretending this is normal. And, again, HE LIED ABOUT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD INCLUDED BRAND VALUE. If you want to include brand value, you have to disclose your methodology. He didn't. He just lied, made up whatever number he wanted as the brand value (something he did all the time, also fraudulent) and then lied about not including brand value.

 

Interesting confession. But, I agree: reasonable debate is impossible . . . because reasonable debate would require facts . . . facts are literally ALL I'm trying to get you to talk about . . . and you refuse. Your position is based entirely on feelings and you try to abandon things the moment any fact is mentioned. Again. I'm sorry it makes you sad to know that MAL is an asset of the Trump Org, a criminal organization, but this is objectively the case.

You will, once again, run away without addressing a single fact. You won't address who owns MAL. You won't address the fact that TO is a criminal organization. There isn't a single fact you are willing to discuss. If it makes Trump look bad, it is verboten!

 

So you dispute CNN's direct quotes of Engoron?

From that same link that @vman12 gave:

“From 2011-2021, the Palm Beach County Assessor appraised the market value of Mar-a-Lago at between $18 million and $27.6 million,” Engoron wrote in his ruling.

The judge noted Trump valued Mar-a-Lago at between $426.5 million and $612 million, “an overvaluation of at least 2,300%, compared to the assessor’s appraisal.”

Are you saying that Engoron really didn't say the part quoted?

You may believe the lies about Engoron not using the tax assessors value, but his own words in the ruling dispute your disbelief. Unless you can provide some other estimate that Engoron used in the price he used for Mar-a-Lago in his ruling? Because if not, then you have no choice but to use the same price that Engoron used in the ruling...the tax assessors price. Which was never intended to be used for financing or for lending institutions.

And yes, Trump used differing values when it benefitted him. Every single investor does the same damn thing. Do you think the banks didn't try and use a lower evaluation of Trumps properties when they made their deals with Trump? Do you think banks don't sell properties they obtain at higher prices than a buyers assessor when they can?

 

Your question was "Why do you think that Trump both said that this number was way too high and also way too low?". I answered that question directly. Whether or not 50% is less than 2000% is irrelevant to that question. It is a strawman argument. You wanted to know how someone could argue that one is too high and one is too low and I provided the precise correct reason why those two positions are not contradictory.

Were you not seriously asking that question?


By the way, I assume it was an oversight on your part. Did you ever get that credible link showing that most of Trumps 500 companies are shell companies as you claimed? If correct, that should not be difficult for you to find. If correct, you will undoubtedly pull it out so quickly that it will make your head spin. If not correct and was instead just a basless claim made off the top of your head, then you will undoubtedly either continue to ignore the question or perhaps come up with some lame excuse that it is not your job to find a link.

FWIW, Im aware of 4 of Trumps 500 companies that have declared bankruptcy. Even if I have missed a few, you have a long way to go before turning those 4 into "most".

 

Mar-a-Lago isn't a "successful business." Mar-a-Lago isn't even its own business. Mar-a-Lago is a business ASSET that is owned by THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION . . . WHICH IS GUILTY OF FRAUD. Stop copy/pasting what Trumpist handlers tell you to say and try getting some real news. If you manage to get something right on this page, it may be the first time you've done so in this thread.[/QUOTE]

Every business is an asset. Every piece of property is an asset. So your objection is dismissed. And yes, it IS a successful business whether you want to consider it or not as such. But hey, we can use another...Grand Hyatt Hotel...Trump Tower which even now is highly sought after by people... 40 Wall St, bought for $35, now worth over 500 million. And I can go on. But I'm sure you'll find more excuses to reject even these so why should I bother?

As far as the "fraud" goes...whether you want to admit it or not, its going to be slapped down in appeals. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, this whole trial was done for no reason other than to smear Trump by Trump haters in order to try and beat him come election day.

 

Every business HAS assets. Every business also has some mix of equity and liability.

Then we have another reading fail on our hands.

I said successful AND non-fraudulent. You pointed me to a fraudulent business which (checks notes) . . . makes it not fit the very simple criteria. Shall I use smaller words? I don't see what you think is confusing here.

Bought by . . . The Trump Organization. Fraudulent.

Owned by the Trump Organization. Fraudulent.

40 Wall St, bought for $35, now worth over 500 million.[/quote]The same one run by the Trump Organization?

I never challenged your ability to keep listing assets of Trump's fraudulent businesses. I'm sorry you took that as my request.

If won't be. He has no legal defense. The Trump Org has been found BOTH criminally guilty and civilly liable. I don't know who you've tuned out to blindly listen to about Trump somehow eventually winning those . . . but let's just say . . . no wonder you think so highly of Trump if you fall for bull **** as deeply packed as this.

 

@JohnHamilton is correct. There is no arguing with you on this. Just because its run by Trump Organization does not in any way shape or form make Mar-A-Lago, Grand Hyatt Hotel or any of the other businesses "fraudulent". As per the norm, Trump haters are spreading the definition of words so freaking thin that the word has been snapped in half. You have no interest in facts or the truth. All you care about is GET TTTRRRUUUUMMMPPPP!!!!

 

Since you also aren't following: I asked which BUSINESSES where both successful and not-fraudulent. BUSINESSES. All @JohnHamilton gave me were ASSETS that were OWNED by FRAUDULENT BUSINESSES. Let me know if smaller words are required. I will do my best.

Lol, dude, whoever told you that you need an MBA to know what a business is and what an asset is did you an incredible disservice.

 

And whoever told you that an asset cannot also be a business is an idiot. Maybe you should look up the term "asset".

 

Every business involves assets and some mixture of equity and liability. We've been over this already. ALL of the assets you've listed are owned by a fraudulent business. All of them. In fact, were any of them not specifically mentioned in the fraud cases?

 

Being owned by one business, does not make them themselves fraudulent.

Don't worry though, I get it. You said something that once proven wrong you wish you hadn't said, but aren't willing to retract either because TTTTRRRUUUUMMMPPP BAAADDD!!!!

Like it or not, you were given not just the one business you asked for, but several successful and non-fraudulent businesses. That you don't want to admit the truth is on you. Not me.

 

Was there no appraisal? Not long ago, lending money without verifying ones ability to repay was called "predatory lending."

 

No. It just means they are an asset of a fraudulent business . . . and that the asset was used to perpetuate said fraud.

I get it, you refuse to read, so you play make-believe that I said something else because you are seething about the fact I was correct.

I was given no businesses. I was given assets that belong to a fraudulent business and which were used to perpetuate fraud within that business. That you don't want to come to terms with any aspect of reality that treats Trump as anything short of an infallible God Emperor is on you, not me.

 

Yes you can. If the bank does it's own appraisal, then that number could change. If the bank doesn't do it's own appraisal, then that's the value of the property.

Until there's a law regulating property appraisal values, the "fair market value" is based, to a significant amount, on someone's opinion. Opinions, by definition, aren't lies. They can be erroneous, mistaken, wrong, stupid, baseless; but not a lie. Hence, it can't be fraud.

 

And that itself is another problem: Were those properties in NY or relevant to the case at all? Of course not. The lack of relevance would be challenged if brought up by a prosecutor but alas a judge on his own, uses separate irrelevant properties/filings as a part of this case to come to his absurd conclusion and even more staggering penalty.

This judge singlehandedly killed speculative gains in NY. No one's going to make a risky investment there for a while. Real Estate investors will also scale back. NY's gonna lose as much money as they get forked out of Trump over the lifetime to come.

 

Your argument doesn't grasp the broader principle.

If you print $100 on your printer, say, for purpose of argument, it's a magical printer, which one could print money perfectly undetectable and get away with it, but you only printed $100. Never got greedy and printed more.

Did you commit a crime? You got $100 worth of goods, and the store got a $100 bill that would fool anybody to, in effect, since they can pass the money given your magical printer is perfect, no one would ever know. is it a crime? Yes, it's still a crime.

Who is the victim?

"The people". Because, even though you can't perceive the victim here, we realize the victim via extrapolation, if everyone printed $100 then prices would rise to the value of the fiat money, it would cause inflation, and the beneficiary would be those who printed the money AND those who hedged against inflation, and it will be paid for by those that did not. Those who didn't hedge will be the victims ( as they are the victims of inflation, as well). The value of your stocks, real estate investments would go up, and it would be paid for by those with only money in the bank, and no hedge investment as their money in the bank would purchase less than it did before. Inflation is a transfer of wealth from those that cannot hedge, to those that can. (Yes, governments are, ion essence, criminal enterprizes to the extent they create inflation, which is why I support subsidies for those who cannot afford to hedge, to compensate, given that it's incredibly difficult to prevent the inflation).

So, though you can't perceive a victim with only $100 bill counterfeited, there is a victim, in principle.

If everyone filed egregious bank loan applications, the number of defaults would increase because fake bank applications hides weaker borrowers, so, in time, everyone would pay via higher interest rates to compensate to the increased defaults.

And so, just as a bad $100 bill is a crime, it's the same for making false back loan applications, especially when your property tax valuations don't agree with your bank loan applications. Now some range is allowed, but not to the extent that Trump did, and that's the issue.

That is why the indictment says 'The People Of NY v. Donald Trump'.

"The People" are the victims.

That is why it is a crime. There is no other reason. making it a crime promotes integrity in the financial community.

As for inflated values, you are allowed to be 'optimistic', there is an acceptable range but not so optimistic that it is totally, utterly, blatantly, and thus criminally optimistic. If the assessed value is $25 million, I suspect one could go as high as, say, $40 million on a bank application, but $400 million? That's when it becomes a crime, especially if, for taxes, you claim it is worth $5 million. This is the kind of crap that Trump does.

 

No, not necessarily. A 'range' is allowed from assessed values and the value applied for. You're allowed to be optimistic, but your not allowed to go way way way beyond optimistic, which is what Trump did.

 

Okay, let's get the facts regarding the valuation of Mar-a-Lago.

1. Official Valuation:
   • According to New York Supreme Court Judge Arthur Engoron, the Palm Beach County assessor appraised Mar-a-Lago’s market value to be between $18 million and $27.6 million1. This assessment was based on the property’s net operating income, considering factors such as memberships, annual dues, and operational expenses2.
   • In contrast, Donald Trump himself had claimed a significantly higher value for Mar-a-Lago, estimating it to be between $426.5 million and $612.1 million in official filings—an overvaluation of at least 2,300 percent2.
2. Deed Restriction:
   • Trump’s decision to impose a deed restriction limiting Mar-a-Lago’s use to a “club” and prohibiting residential living beyond a certain number of days was strategic.
   • By doing so, he aimed to maximize tax benefits associated with the property.
3. Controversy and Legal Ruling:
   • The recent fraud case against Trump, his sons, and the Trump Organization brought Mar-a-Lago’s valuation into sharp focus.
   • Judge Engoron deemed the discrepancy between the official appraisal and Trump’s claimed value as fraudulent. He asserted that such a vast difference could only be considered fraudulent, especially when it involved a real estate developer assessing his own living space2.
   • The ruling ordered penalties and the transfer of ownership for some of Trump’s properties.

In summary, while the official valuation places Mar-a-Lago within the range of $18 million to $27.6 million, Trump’s own estimation vastly exceeded this figure. The property’s unique status as a club with deed restrictions has implications for its assessment as a residential or commercial property2

You can't sign away residency rights, thus reducing the value in order to reap a tax benefit, then turn around an claim it is worth 2300% more in order to reap an interest benefit on a bank loan. You'd be allowed to be optimistic, say 25% more (most likely), but not 2300%, that's fraud. You also cheating the bank, whether they are happy or not. I suspect that, when it comes to a guy like Trump, they would be happy just to be repaid and make something. People can be tricked into believing they are not victims, or be victims without realizing it, and still be victims in principle.

 

If I understand the law correctly (I'm not a lawyer) I believe at the time of the loan application, the deed restriction would have had to be removed (or the process for removal in progress and a reasonable chance for success) for it not to be a crime.

 

It is one thing to deed restrict, so the tax value is, say $18-27 million, as was the case, and apply for a bank loan estimating it 100% above that value (unless the restriction was removed), and assessing it a 2300% for favorable interest benefits on a bank loan.

You're allowed to be optimistic, but not criminally so.

 

Of course they're relevant. It's what the case was about.