A challenge to anyone who opposes Medicare for All

Of course Bernie said everyone would need a 25% tax increase to pay for all the free stuff he wants to hand out.

 

No he didn't.

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/03/bernie-sanders-tax-increases-220267

 

The quality of those opposing the OP certainly guarantee its accuracy.

 

That is VERY biased since it make no mention of all the savings from payroll taxes, employer health plans, insurance premiums being eliminated, not to mention the cost savings of better preventative care, and the elimination of profits, advertising costs, lobbying costs, strategy planning departments, and general insurance company overhead.

The plan would NOT add more taxes. It SHIFTS taxes and saves in the process. So your article and your reasoning are fraudulent since they fail to tell the whole story. There is no way Medicare for All would increase healthcare costs.

 

dont force anyone to provide me service that Im not paying for

 

A modern society does not work that way, modernpaladin.

 

why not?

You realize thats just a flowery way of saying 'thats how it (the status quo) is, deal with it.'

How conservative of you...

 

How objective of me.

Nope, we are not going to change for you.

 

Oh give me a break. You know damned well that decency, ethics, morals, and the hippocratic oath would GUARANTEE that you would get needed treatment. So, knowing that, your plan is to leech of the rest of us. Thus your whole argument crumbles in front of your eyes.

 

WRONG.

From the Canadian govt run Canadian Institute for Health Information
https://www.cihi.ca/en/wait-times-for-priority-procedures-in-canada-2017

Canada set benchmarks for receiving care, for example the benchmark for knee replacement is to have the knee replacement performed within 182 days after the patient and the specialist have agreed to the service. Note that the patient has to go through the primary care provider first, be referred to and schedule an appointment with the specialist, see the specialist and be scheduled for surgery before the benchmark clock starts.

Only 61% of patients receive the knee replacement surgery with the benchmark. 90% of patients have received the surgery after 341 days - almost a year.

Knee replacement, hip replacement, cataract surgery, hip fracture surgery, treatment for breast cancer, colorectal cancer, all fail to meet the benchmark.

Knee replacement surgery wait time in the USA is 3 weeks.

 

So? That means nothing if you can't contextualize it with the US and other western nations, Battle3.

What is the wait time in the US if the patient does not have insurance or is not rich?

 

This is the actual data from the knee replacement page:

50% were treated in 116 days.
73% were treated in 182 days (within benchmark)
90% were treated in 291 days (this percentage includes those treated within 116, 182 and 291 days)

http://waittimes.cihi.ca/All/knee

Worth bearing in mind that universal healthcare systems deliver healthcare to 100% of the population.

 

Not all services are available in all parts of Canada - so Canadian universal health care is not "universal".

And if you have to wait an inordinate amount of time, in pain, disabled and unable to work, with a poor quality of life, then "universal" health care isn't that great.

The wait time for knee replacement in the USA is 3 weeks, that's 21 days.

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-myth-of-the-hippocratic-oath-201511258447

"According to a 1989 survey, barely half of U.S. medical schools used any form of the Hippocratic Oath and only 2% used the original. In a 2011 study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, about 80% of practicing physicians reported participating in an oath ceremony, but only a quarter felt that the oath significantly affected how they practiced."

If there is any obligation to provide care, its a legal one- and can be undone if we simply take responsibility for our own well being instead of expecting others to pitch in. The 'moral/ethical' obligation has been largely abandonned.

 

You already lost the argument. You know you would not be left untreated.

 

Since you are not an expert, who cares?

Who says time is "inordinate" "in pain, disabled, and unable to work"? You? Dismiss that without evidence

The silly 21-day comment is for a health insurance program for a very small portion of Americans who can pay the premiums.

Go to, Battle3, go to.

 

So you're claiming that H.R.676 - Expanded & Improved Medicare For All Act is propaganda?

Or are you claiming that the Left-wing Urban Institute's analysis of Medicare-for-All is propaganda?

It's not my fault that you don't understand that the US Supreme Court has determined that healthcare and health insurance are intra-State commerce, not Interstate Commerice.

Why don't you read the analysis by the Left-wing Urban Institute and find out?

 

i wouldn't sue anyone who refused to treat me, nor would I expect anyone to treat me if I were unable to compensate them. if they volunteer to treat me, awesome (ill be in their debt), but your presumptions of my intent are biased and wrong, and your inference that Im obligated to participate in a system simply because everyone else is as well is circular logic, and thus flawed.

What you're essentially saying is that Im obligated to pay for everyone else because everyone else is being forced to pay for me. Which, of course, is insane. Im not forcing anyone to do anything, and their being forced into it as well has nothing to do with me.

If you really think a collective forced to exist by such manufacture is sustainable... ya'll are crazier than I thought.

Theres gonna be a lot of pitchforks and torches coming for you folks if you keep it up. Dont say you werent warned.

 

I'm claiming that YOU spout propaganda like a good parrot.

-according to current law. It's not my fault you don't understand that can be changed. Are you saying Medicare is unconstitutional?

I did. I was giving you a chance to be honest. You instead chose to be snarky. They said nothing about any of those things.

 

Stop trying to change the subject to save your butt. It doesn't matter who you wouldn't sue or what you expect. You would not be ignored by any ER in any state and you know it. You're one of those people who knows damned well they'll be taken care of but don't want to pay for it because you think you can leech off the rest of us. Well, you can. But it shows us who and what you are.

Your argument is void because you don't live in the world you are describing. It is not reality. And if you are not in touch with reality, . . . well . . . . you know what it means.

 

My data on Canada come from the Canadian govt Canadian Institute for Health Information
https://www.cihi.ca/en/

CIHI documents lost work days due to wait times.

Get the facts. Go to the direct source (CIHI), stop pushing BS.

 

Your attempt to conflate individualists with moochers is either incredibly disingenuous or incredibly naive. Just because social engineers have designed the effect of getting 'free care' doesnt mean those who wish to opt out are seeking 'free care.' The system created that circumstancial, unavoidable side-effect. Its basically entrapment.

But I think you know that.

 

Are you opposing universal health care just for yourself , or for everyone?

 

Your arguments continue to fail and flail.

You are comparing a 100% national care system to a very limited private insurance program: apples to oranges.

Americans lost work days due to wait times.

Get the facts.