A logical and empirical look at Election Fraud in 2020

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by altmiddle, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Donor

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    Fine. Strike those from consideration. How many actual fraud cases were argued? How many won? Look at the Michigan case I discussed in my earlier post.

    Who said that? The issue is that there's no rational reason to believe there was sufficient fraud to change the outcome of the election, and yet 70% of Republicans believe the election was stolen.
     
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  2. Esdraelon

    Esdraelon Well-Known Member Donor

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    Anyone who believes it doesn't matter is in for an unpleasant wake-up call. Had ANY court taken this issue up and evaluated the claims against Dominion or things like a couple of hundred thousand excess voters in PA, there would be MUCH less distrust. As it is, just remember that because YOU are convinced doesn't mean everyone else is. It also doesn't mean America will move on from this and forget about it. it WILL be addressed or we'll fall apart as a nation. Your Party went way too far this time and there will be no escaping the consequences with laughter or lies.
     
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  3. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Donor

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    ~ Election integrity is suspect . A thumbprint would help - as we have done in other countries to prevent fraud.
    upload_2021-1-30_18-39-27.png
     
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  4. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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  5. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Without positive ID of voters before voting, ballot security and chain of custody, you have no idea if the ballot totals produced reflect the choice of the Electorate. And as long our systems are so deliberately sloppy that fraud can occur without detection, it is perfectly rational to question the results.

    If Dems have continued to prevent sensible election procedures to be put into place by the next time the GOP is in charge, the GOP needs to mandate that Electors are awarded by Congressional Districts, the system that NE and ME are already using, to end this current state of affairs where if Dems steal four cities by wide enough margins that they can steal an entire election.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
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  6. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Evert registered voter had to prove themselves via some form of ID.

    Each of the 50 states have their own method. And each state has both parties involved in the process.
     
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  7. Independent4ever

    Independent4ever Well-Known Member

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    and Phila was one of those 4 cities - correct?
     
  8. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Donor

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    That conflates possibility with probability. Past analysis has shown that fraud occurs, but in very small numbers. With more mail-in voting, it's also fair to believe there might have been MORE fraud than usual - but the notion that it is LIKELY that there was fraud on a sufficient scale to change the results in multiple states is not rational. Biden won Pennsylvania by 80K votes; Michigan by 154K. It's not rational to assume, without evidence, that there was sufficient fraud in these two states to change the result. Georgia is another matter: winning by less than 12K votes warrants closer inspection - but it WAS examined closely through multiple recounts.

    Also bear in mind that fraud works both ways: there's opportunity to cheat on both sides, so there's clearly partisan bias involved when Republicans assume the opportunities to cheat apply only to Democrats.


    The federal government does not have the authority to tell states how to award their electoral votes (unless a Constitutional Amendment were to pass, which is highly unlikely). Each state could individually do that, but this would draw even greater attention to partisan gerrymandering, and it's risky. Consider my state of Texas: the GOP can count on receiving all 38 electoral votes. Assigning by Congressional district will certainly lower the number the GOP receives, and there's no counting on other states (like California) to offset it - because each state decides on its own.
     
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  9. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Read my posts. I already provided one example.

    The claim that election fraud was not alleged in the lawsuits filed to contest the election was false.

    Why do you suppose Trump's opposition feels compelled to lie about that? ;-)
     
  10. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Ty for admitting that neither the DP or any of the parties in any of the lawsuits alleging election rigging have filed motions for Rule 11 sanctions against the lawyers who signed the complaints.

    You should wonder why that did not happen last November. ;-)
     
  11. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    The first "Trump lawsuit" I looked at contained an allegation of election fraud. Have you actually read any of these lawsuits? Or are you relying on MSM media reports?

    The next lawsuit that I reviewed also contains many allegations of election fraud.

    "4. Indeed, the Governor is well aware of this problem. New Jersey has a long history of problems with voting by mail. Countless individuals have been convicted of voter fraud tied to absentee ballots over the last decade. And that tradition unsurprisingly recurred when the Governor ordered universal vote-by-mail for local elections in May of this year in response to COVID-19. The Attorney General has charged four individuals in Paterson, NJ—including one sitting city council member and one candidate for city council who nominally won his race—on charges arising from a scheme to collect and illegally mail in hundreds of absentee ballots in that election. That scheme led to a crisis in Paterson, requiring that the city hold another election between the indicted candidate and his opponent because it is impossible to determine just how many fraudulent ballots were cast. Notwithstanding that experience, the Governor has expanded universal vote-by-mail to the entire state for the November election.
    5. For all these reasons and more, EO 177 is illegal and must be enjoined."

    "IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY

    COMPLAINT FOR DECLARATORY AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF
    DONALD J. TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT, INC., REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, NEW JERSEY REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE,

    Plaintiffs,

    v.

    PHILIP D. MURPHY, in his official capacity as Governor of New Jersey, TAHESHA WAY, in her official capacity as Secretary of State of New Jersey,
    Defendants.

    Case 3:20-cv-10753-MAS-ZNQ
    Document 1
    Filed 08/18/20
    Page 1 of 37 PageID: 1"

    By now everyone should know that massive election fraud is common in the US. This is not a secret.
     
  12. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    There have been many lawsuits. The first two that I reviewed contain many allegations of election fraud.

    All of the lawyers who signed those lawsuits are subject to Rule 11 sanctions and criminal charges if they filed false pleadings to rig or overturn an election.

    So, why didn't the lawyers arguing that the elections were free and fair move immediately against the RP lawyers to stop false attacks on the integrity of the election?

    Are they a bunch of GD DINO's or just timid gentle souls? ;-)
     
  13. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    LOL! The DP lawyers did not even file motions for Rule 11 sanctions for the courts to rule on.

    Why were they so shy? ;-)
     
  14. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    None of the lawwers offered the fraud argument in court, even Guiliani, because as officers of the court, they are required to be truthful or lose their accreditation to practise. Asked outright by the judge if that was his claim, Guliani backed up and said no, then OUTSIDE the court repeated the fraud claims.
     
  15. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    .....
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  16. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    1 example? Why didn't trump legal team show that example.

    And how does that 1 supposed example over turn the election in 5 states at least?

    They feel compelled to yell about it because they are being lied to and buy into the lie. It's like they don't actually care about facts.
     
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  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    No, the former pres legal team should wonder why.
    Why didn't the USSC hear a case?
    Why did judges appointed by the past admin rule to not hear any cases?

    Because there were no legal cases to be heard. The legal team failed because they had nothing but lies.
     
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  18. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    None of the Trump lawsuits alleged fraud. When asked by judges, trumps legal team specifically said they are not alleging fraud.

    there is no massive election fraud in the US. Every single investigative body that has looked into it, including trumps DHS, trumps DOJ, trumps Attorney General, Republican Secretaries of State, Republican governors, all 50 state election commissions. Every single court it’s been in front of, have shown you that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
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  19. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    By now it's been proven over and over again by countless investigations that election fraud amounts to about 0.0000007% of votes.
    Statistically insignificant.

    But go ahead and prove otherwise.


    https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?state=PA
    Search to your hearts content. Yes there is fraud. But look at how little.
     
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  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    What is your point?

    I'm WELL aware that the courts and our justice system are doing almost nothing at all.

    Do you think it might have been an idea to arrest some of the insurgents who overran our Capitol in a self-admitted attempt to kill congressmen and the VP and to defeant democracy?

    The problem is WAY WAY beyond the lies about the election.

    This is about whether or not we as a nation support democracy and the rule of law.

    Or, is democracy and the rule of law only of interest to Democrats??

    You can't have it both ways. Republicans are standing AGAINST democracy and the rule of law.

    If you want that to change, then you need to start SAYING SO - and not just here on this board.
     
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  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    As has already been said MANY MANY times, including on this board, the Republican filings carefully avoided Rule 11 by not making illegal claims in court.

    They DID make those claims on the court house steps and in every other venue - because we don't have laws against LYING. We are absolutely fine with the resident lying and lying and lying as he whips up his insurgency, along with Giuliani, who even went so far as to state that this was WAR during the pre-insurgency rally.

    The weakness with democracy is that the people have to believe in it and support it.

    Republicans have made every effort to defeat that requirement.
     
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  22. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    I reviewed just two cases. Allegations of fraud brought before the court. For instance:

    "26. Similarly, a 2010 study by the Caltech/MIT Voting Technology Project found that roughly 9% of listed registration records in the United States are invalid. On top of those invalid records, “in the typical state 1 in 65 records is duplicative, meaning that the same registrant is listed multiple times.” The same study found that “n the typical state, 1 in 40 counted votes in the 2008 general election cannot be matched to a registrant listed as having voted” and that “1 in 100 listed registrants is likely to be deceased.”
    6
    Case 3:20-cv-10753-MAS-ZNQ Document 1 Filed 08/18/20 Page 7 of 37 PageID: 7
    27. These discrepancies result from bureaucratic failures, intentional fraud, and inadvertent mistakes.
    28. Because of these widespread inaccuracies in a state’s voter registration records, a state that sends ballots to all registered voters will necessarily send ballots to persons ineligible to vote or others with fake registrations, invalid registrations, outdated registrations, and to the deceased. Placing hundreds of thousands of ballots “outside of both election officials’ control and the hands of the voters who are supposed to be casting them raises a serious threat to both the actual and perceived integrity of the electoral system.” Morley, Redlines 3.
    29. These risks are compounded by the practice of ballot harvesting—that is, coordinated efforts to have third parties collect absentee ballots from voters and drop them off at polling places or elections centers."

    IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY

    COMPLAINT FOR DECLARATORY AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF
    DONALD J. TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT, INC., REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, NEW JERSEY REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE,

    Plaintiffs,

    v.

    PHILIP D. MURPHY, in his official capacity as Governor of New Jersey, TAHESHA WAY, in her official capacity as Secretary of State of New Jersey,
    Defendants.

    Case 3:20-cv-10753-MAS-ZNQ
    Document 1
    Filed 08/18/20
    Page 1 of 37 PageID: 1"

    This is why I have to wonder why the DP lawyers, who apparently believe there was no fraud, and that the pleadings were false did not file motions for Rule 11 sanctions to deal with the RP legal team.

    Every ordinary Democrat who supports Biden/Harris and believes the election was honest free and fair should also be puzzled by the lack of an immediate aggressive defense of the integrity of the election as soon as those lawsuits were filed.
     
  23. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    The two lawsuits I have reviewed, contrary to claims on this thread allege massive election fraud, and lying in a pleading in a federal court is a Bozo No No - even in New Jersey. ;-)

    "V. Governor Murphy’s Prior Universal Vote-By-Mail Executive Orders Facilitated Widespread Fraud and Confusion
    74. Not only is the Order unnecessary and inconsistent with the Governor’s other Executive Orders dealing with COVID-19, it is destined to lead to the same disastrous result as his prior Executive Orders allowing universal vote-by-mail.
    75. On March 19, Governor Murphy announced changes to the Spring elections. Among other things, Governor Murphy postponed all elections until May 12. Exec. Order No. 105 (Mar. 19, 2020), https://bit.ly/2DYUeNd. He ordered that “there will be no polling places in the May 12, 2020 elections,” and that the election “shall be conducted solely via vote-by-mail ballots, which will automatically be sent to all registered voters without the need for an application to receive a vote-by-mail ballot.” Id.
    76. Over 30 municipalities held nonpartisan municipal, school board or special 20
    Case 3:20-cv-10753-MAS-ZNQ Document 1 Filed 08/18/20 Page 21 of 37 PageID: 21
    elections completely by mail on May 12.
    77. To put it bluntly, the results were disastrous. Ten percent of ballots that were cast
    were invalidated. That is more than 3 times as many invalidated mail-in votes as the 2018 general election in New Jersey.
    78. But those statistics pale in comparison to what happened in the City of Paterson. There, Alex Mendez beat his opponent Bill McKoy by just 240 votes in a bid for a city council seat. Almost immediately, however, officials encountered evidence of massive voter fraud. It began with the discovery of nearly 900 votes that were mailed in bulk from three individual mailboxes, including more than 300 rubber-banded together from a single a mailbox.
    79. Next, there were widespread reports of people being listed as having voted, but who say they never even received their ballots. One woman was shown an official list of people who voted that lived on her block. She confirmed that there were eight people on the list, plus herself, who she knows didn’t vote. A councilman reported he knew of at least another dozen cases of the same thing happening.
    80. In the weeks following the election, the New Jersey Attorney General conducted an investigation into voter fraud and discovered an illegal conspiracy to get Mendez elected. McKoy’s attorneys revealed the AG’s findings in a lawsuit to challenge the election’s outcome. The election, they explained, “was rife with nonfeasance, malfeasance, and straight up voter fraud. It was a failure at every level, from the mailing of VBMs to their delivery, from the actual casting of the ballots to the receiving of same by the Board of Elections and their counting.” In particular, a campaign worker for Mendez “confessed to investigators working on behalf of the [New Jersey Attorney General’s] office to having stolen ballots out of mailboxes, both completed and uncompleted, on behalf of and at the direction of the Mendez campaign.” 21

    IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY

    COMPLAINT FOR DECLARATORY AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF
    DONALD J. TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT, INC., REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, NEW JERSEY REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE,

    Plaintiffs,

    v.

    PHILIP D. MURPHY, in his official capacity as Governor of New Jersey, TAHESHA WAY, in her official capacity as Secretary of State of New Jersey,
    Defendants.

    Case 3:20-cv-10753-MAS-ZNQ
    Document 1
    Filed 08/18/20
    Page 1 of 37 PageID: 21.
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The issue in court was whether the election was stolen as Republicans claim - or clais in support of that general nature.

    The investigation you cite above points to record keeping errors - not to fraud.

    Nobody has ever claied that there have been no votes cast illegally. You are just totally wrong about that.

    The claim is that there have not been anywhere NEAR enough votes cast illegally to change ANY election outcome. And, the way that question gets answer is fully definied in law.

    NO percived failures in that process can POSSIBLY justify a murderous insurgency dedicated to killing congressmen, the vice president or overthrowing our democracy.

    And, now we see Republican response being to IGNORE that murderous insurgency and to work on ways to prevent democracy from taking place in states where Republicans have control.

    Do you Dyad believe in democracy?

    If so, what are you willing to do to stop the assault on America's democracy that Republicans are continuing to wage?
     
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  25. Statistikhengst

    Statistikhengst Well-Known Member

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    Ok, that seems like fair game to me.

    The most common type of fraud concerns people who vote twice, either by voting in their home state and also trying to vote while out of state.

    Another type of fraud - unintended fraud - concerns very elderly people who cast an early ballot, forget that they cast said early ballot and then go to vote on election day. In states where there are data-base guardrails to protect against this, sometimes the problem can be overcome by simply informing the elderly that they already voted. Sometimes, however, in doubt, they still cast a provisional ballot, which then is compared to the early ballot, one is thrown out, but the elderly person can still be charged with a crime, because it is a crime, although unintended. Alzheimers can really be a bitch.

    Ballot harvesting is not a crime in states where it is allowed (that would be most of them), nor is it either voting or electoral fraud. But harvesting incomplete ballots that are not already sealed in the envelope and then signing another name on the ballot and voting for whomever one wants, now THAT is electoral fraud of the worst type, which happened on the Republican side in the congressional race for NC-09 in 2018. That race was never certified, it was thrown out, the perpetrators are going to jail and there was a special election for NC-09.

    In 2013, the state of Ohio pressed charged against 157 voters for voter fraud in the 2012 general election. That was 0.0024% (24 10-thousandths of 1 percent, just to be crystal clear). Most were elderly who voted twice, because (see: Alzheimers). Some were university students who were charged with voting out of state as well and in most of those cases, it ended up that they did not. Obama won Ohio by +2.97% in margin in 2012: 0.0024% was not going to make a difference.

    In 2016, 2018 and 2020, a number of Republican voters in many states decided to deliberately commit voter fraud, just to see if the system was working. And indeed, most of them found out the hard way that the system works.

    In order for illegal aliens to get away with voting in any numbers at all, this would require the willing collusion of all of the poll workers who processed their ballots, and as you know, at most all polling places, there are three poll workers who work shoulder to shoulder with each other: a Democrat, a Republican, and a non-affiliated (Independent) poll worker. There was a big bruhaha in California about illegal aliens getting drivers licenses and therefore being able to vote, but their DLs have a special symbol on them identifying them as immigrants without an American passport (for instance, seasonal workers who have to drive).

    So, yes, there has also been an incredibly small amount of voter fraud and perhaps a smidge larger amount of electoral fraud in pretty much every election because, well... the human condition.

    The conundrum, or catch-21 here is the following:

    -a requirement for voting ID (which I support wholeheartedly, as a Democrat, mind you) is easy to fullfill with a national ID card, including retinal data. Righties generally do not like this because why make things easy when you can make them hard, nööööö.

    -Big old fat VR database for the entire country. Righties also do not like this because Jeebus and Freeeeeedom.

    -When you go to vote, you present your ID with retinal data stored on it - the machine scans your eye, checks against the database and boom, you are good to go.

    -Since dead people are not really able to stand up to let a scanner scan their eyes, this precludes the Right's beloved boogeyman of dead voters from appearing.

    A lot of what bothered Trump voters in 2020, mostly because Trump himself lied out his ass about his obvious 7.1 million vote DEFEAT to Joe Biden, was about procedural stuff that each state is allowed to do concerning elections because of: 10th Amendment (Federalism).

    So, until there are national standards for all of the nuts and bolts of electioneering, this red herring is going to stink every election cycle.

    Oh and did I mention that we were (and still are) in the middle of a deadly pandemic and record numbers of voters cast early ballots, which many Republicans want to call fake?

    I wish to congratulate you for starting this thread. It took a lot of guts to say what you said. This is the kind of honesty we need from everyone.

    And yes, I am pretty sure that John Kennedy stole the election in 1960. It doesn't mean that Trump would get to steal the election of 2020.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
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