RE: About the Holocaust ⁜→ Grau, et al, This is one of those discussion threads that had become emotionally entangled to such a degree that the "Key Positions" → the "Central Issues" → and the various "allegations" have been lost. (COMMENT) ◈ Who is promoting what Idea? ◈ Who is defending what? ◈ Is there a claim or allegation? (Point - Counterpoint) This discussion thread is an absolute mess. If external observer was to look at this thread, → they would just pass it right on by → because they would not detect any intelligent life. Most Respectfully, R
Thank you RoccoR, I can only speak for myself in maintaining that all I want is is what I claimed in my earlier Post: a civil and mature discussion about one of man's numerous horrific tragedies. I have repeatedly made my position clear at different points during this lengthy thread. Yes, the holocaust happened. I do not deny that numerous Bolsheviks, Roma, Jews, Gays etc were persecuted, placed in work camps where many were treated cruelly and many were executed. I do, however, concur with holocaust authority, Arno Mayer, that more people died from disease or natural causes than were executed in the same ways in which people were executed under Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao etc. During WW 2, the Germans needed a healthy and productive workforce and it makes no sense that they would devote the massive amount of manpower & extensive resources needed to round up people, transport them to camps where they were housed, fed, received medical care etc just to execute them in complex "homicidal gas chambers" and then devote even more precious time, manpower & resources to pulverize the bones & teeth before transporting these tons of ashes, crushed bones & teeth to rivers, other obscure & untouchable locations. . It does make sense that bodies were cremated to prevent the spread of typhus, the primary killer at all the camps but Germany could not afford to waste anything while fighting a 3 front war against vastly superior numbers possessing unlimited resources. Meanwhile, there's even an unclaimed $100,000- reward for anyone who can produce a "mass grave" at Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary or Sobibor. (1) Some people embrace the seemingly racist idea that the holocaust was somehow more profound & tragic because Jews were among the persecuted or that it was more horrific than equal or greater mass killings because of the "industrialized" nature in which people were executed in "homicidal gas chambers" which did not exist in any of the German work camps. Naturally, most of the world (2) & I reject theses specious notions since I feel like all lives are equally valuable in life and death. However, what Norman Finkelstein calls "The Holocaust Industry" is relentless in marketing its "product" via Hollywood & extracting still more $ Billions(3) while the survivors of other mass killings have not, to my knowledge, received a dime in reparations and deserving holocaust survivors have been cheated (4). Please feel free to read the thoughtful OP and do what you can to inject some signs of "intelligent life" into this thread. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts & if we disagree, I'm sure we can do so civilly & respectfully. (1) "THE HOLOCAUST ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX" http://www.nafcash.com/ EXCERPT "It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II - hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of corpses were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive allegations to the contrary, the truth is; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the - one hundred - graves / cremation pits that are alleged to have been scientifically proven to currently exist at these sites, in which verified human remains have been tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology; contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE. $100,000.00 REWARD For proving - just 1 / 1,000 of 1% - of the criminally fraudulent buried remains allegations" CONTINUED (2) ”THE WORLD IS FULL OF HOLOCAUST DENIERS” https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...he-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/ EXCERPT “This is the most staggering statistic in a new survey by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of more than 53,000 people in over 100 countries, conducted by First International Resources. Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts. Some said they thought the number of people who died has been exaggerated; others said they believe it's a myth. Thirty percent of respondents said it's probably true that "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust." - Hindus were most likely to believe that the number of Holocaust deaths has been exaggerated. - people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted”CONTINUED (3) "Holocaust Survivors' Children Sue Germany for Therapy Fees" https://www.haaretz.com/1.4952800 (4) "HOLOCAUST CLAIMS CONFERENCE FRAUD LIKELY ‘MUCH HIGHER’ THAN $57 MILLION" http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Holoc...aud-likely-much-higher-than-57-million-408298 EXCERPT "Writing to the Claims Conference’s board last week, recently terminated ombudsman Shmuel Hollander asserted that, while reports had said organizational insiders had siphoned off $57 million in German taxpayer funds meant for survivors, “the final sum is in all probability much higher.”CONTINUED
that's because folks deny that the Jews truly suffered in a large way, namely millions murdered by the Nazis and their Fascist allies by gassing, shooting, starvation, torture, untreated sickness, and other methods. it's funny how Holocaust deniers will admit that the Nazis had a vile hatred for the Jews and even talked about their extermination but refuse to believe that they would actually carry out such plans. And yet they will on the other hand claim that the Soviets murdered 9 to 15 million German civilians, without any evidence of such mass killings or evidence of millions of dead German civilian bodies. Oh the irony
My father served in the US Army during WWII. As the war ended, he saw the death camps himself - an experience he never forgot. He certainly would have given no credence to Holocaust deniers. Tens of thousands of Allied soldiers had the same experience. And what about the miles of film footage taken of the camps by the Nazis themselves. And the testimony of thousands of survivors.
Europe was at war and everyone of all nationalities, religions & ethnic groups suffered dismally around the world, not just the Jews of Europe on whom you continue to focus to the exclusion of all other persecuted groups. Additionally, I have already shown where there were Jews who were high ranking members of the Nazi party(1) and 150,000 Jews served in Hitler's armies(2) with many reaching the highest ranks and receiving Germany's highest military honors with Hitler's full knowledge & approval. These & numerous other exceptions indicate that the Nuremberg race laws which were supported by the German Zionist Federation to maintain Jewish "racial purity" were only haphazardly & arbitrarily enforced. In other words, the Nazis apparently did not have a vile hatred of all Jews nor were there any orders for a "Final Solution" ever written anywhere(3) as not all Jews were persecuted and many aided & abetted in the persecution of other Jews. Now, if you would like to continue this exchange, please answer my last question & stop moving the goalposts. Why did you try to pass off delousing chambers as "homicidal gas chambers" when no homicidal gas chambers existed in any of the German camps. Another Poster claims that the only reason no homicidal gas chambers exist is because they were all conveniently destroyed along with any blueprints or requisition orders. Do you agree that no homicidal gas chambers exist because they were all destroyed & if so, why are dreary morgues, bomb shelters & other ominous looking rooms fraudulently labeled as "gas chambers" if not to deceive visitors & other gullible, poorly informed individuals? (1) "List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent EXCERPT "Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of Jewish descent."CONTINUED (2) “Hitler’s Jewish Army” http://counterpsyops.com/2013/02/14/...-hitlers-army/ EXCERPT “Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval. In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded(*)Germany’s highest military honor, the Knight’s Cross. Jews also served in the Nazi police and security forces as ghetto police(Ordnungdienst)(*)and concentration camp guards(*)(kapos). So what happens to the claim that Hitler sought to exterminate all Jews, when he allowed some of them to join in his struggle against Bolshevism and International finance capitalism? “If the Jews were permitted to serve in Hitler’s armed forces then there could not have been a Holocaust.”CONTINUED (3) “To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.” - Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190
What your father saw were horrific piles of rotting bodies who died of typhus and related diseases because, according to the Red Cross, the Allies destroyed Germany's ability to resupply the camps. Toward the end of the war everyone in Germany was suffering from disease & starvation for the same reason. Typhus was so rempant in the camps toward the end of the war that 15,000 inmates at Bergen-Belsen died of typhus after liberation by the British. I suspect that your father would have been even more horrified at the sight of Eisenhower's Rhine Meadows death camps(1) where Eisenhower blatantly violated the Geneva Convention by refusing food, medical care & even shelter to German POWs. Eisenhower gave orders to execute (shoot) anyone passing food to German POWs & refused to let the Red Cross visit his death camps or distribute food or medicine. I also suspect that your father never set foot in any of the innumerable Soviet Gulags run by the Communists in which far more people were killed before, during and after WW2 was long over. Nobody doubts that many people died in the German camps however their deaths are in no way more special, profound or unique than the deaths of those who suffered under Gengrikh Yagota(2), Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Eisenhower, Churchill(3), (4) etc (1) "Eisenhower’s death camps — a stain on American history" https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/eisenhowers-death-camps-a-stain-on-american-history/ EXCERPT "The POW camps set up by General Dwight D. Eisenhower, after World War II ended, are also called death camps, because 1.7 million German POWs allegedly died in these camps. To read more about Eisenhower’s camps, go to this website or this website. General Eisenhower held his POWs until the end of 1946, forcing them to live on starvation rations. German civilians were forbidden to bring food to the POWs. Red Cross packages sent to the German POW camps were returned. The POW camps had no barracks or tents"CONTINUED (2) "Stalin's Jews" "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish" https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html EXCERPT "And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people."CONTINUED (3) "Not his finest hour: The dark side of Winston Churchill" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-dark-side-of-winston-churchill-2118317.html EXCERPT "Up to 3 million people starved to death while British officials begged Churchill to direct food supplies to the region. He bluntly refused. He raged that it was their own fault for "breeding like rabbits". At other times, he said the plague was "merrily" culling the population."CONTINUED (4) "Winston Churchill: the Imperial Monster" https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/28/winston-churchill-the-imperial-monster/ EXCERPT "Meanwhile, Prime Minister Churchill had ordered the saturation bombing of Dresden, where, on February 13 1945, more than 500,000 German civilians and refugees, mostly women and children, were slaughtered in one day by the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF), who dropped over 700,000 phosphorus bombs on the city. Prime Minister Churchill had said earlier: “I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war, what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau.”CONTINUED "God, I hate the Germans..." (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife in September, 1944)
false!!! most Germans were getting their basic nutrition needs met while folks in concentration camps looked like skeletons. its called genocide
i see the problem!! you're confused as to why the Nazis and their fascist allies would spend soo much time and money on executing and torturing millions of people, when they could have instead be used to help their war effort. yes, its quite the idea to wrap one's head around. you see, @Grau, the Nazis were sick, sadictic, evil SOBs. They valued murder and bloodshed more than anything else. even at the end of the war, when they needed help the most and couldn't spare a single soldier, they kept up the mass-murder of the Jews. that's how sick, demented, evil and ****ed up they were. they literally cared more about erasing the Jewish people, than using every resource towards winning the war. let's pray the world never again sees the rise of such sick twisted people again
Your desperate attempts to evade my questions are as transparent as they are fatuous Now, if you would like to continue this exchange, please answer my earlier simple questions & stop being so evasive. My questions were: Why did you try to pass off delousing chambers as "homicidal gas chambers" when no homicidal gas chambers existed in any of the German camps? Another Poster claims that the only reason no homicidal gas chambers exist is because they were all conveniently destroyed along with any blueprints or requisition orders. Do you agree that no homicidal gas chambers exist because they were all destroyed & if so, why are dreary morgues, bomb shelters & other ominous looking rooms fraudulently labeled as "gas chambers" if not to deceive visitors & other gullible, poorly informed individuals?
cause they were gas chambers used to murder millions of Jews and others. according to the testimony of many former Nazis, Sonderkommando, and other death camp staff. ....which of course you disregard, but who cares
Mine was a simple, 2 part question and yet you still refuse to answer directly. In your post # 470, it appeared that you tried to deceive us into believing that you had blueprints of a homicidal gas chamber when your own source clearly explained that it was "part of a delousing facility" that was used to prevent the spread of disease & save lives. Meanwhile, your own source says: "Blueprints for Auschwitz camp found in Germany" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...z-camp-found-in-germany-idUSTRE4A71SC20081109 EXCERPT "One has an 11.66 meter by 11.20 meter room marked “Gaskammer” (gas chamber) that was part of a “delousing facility.”CONTINUED Were you hoping to deceive readers into believing that what you found were blueprints to an actual homicidal gas chamber or did you simply not read the text of your own source? My 2nd question was: Do you agree with another individual that no homicidal gas chambers exist because they were all destroyed & if so, why are dreary morgues, bomb shelters & other ominous looking rooms fraudulently labeled as "gas chambers" if not to deceive visitors & more gullible, poorly informed individuals? If you will please answer these simple questions, we can move on to discuss the reliability of tortured "testimony" of "many former Nazis, Sonderkommando, and other death camp staff." Of the 139 men who testified in one post war "trial", all but 2 had their testicles crushed beyond repair & all had bones broken, teeth pulled, burning matches shoved under their fingernails and other forms of torture to extract the desired "testimony" about "homicidal gas chambers" etc.
Hey @Grau, if Auschwitz was just a "work camp", how come they installed enough crematoria ovens to dispose of 700,000 bodies a year? how come the detention camps for Japanese-Americans had no such facilities? LOL!!!! this should be good.
Not as good as your obvious attempts to divert attention from your attempts at deception. Please quit being so evasive and answer the simple questions you either cannot or will not answer. You're simply hoping to evade evidence of your deceptions by attempting to change the subject In your post # 470, it appeared that you tried to deceive us into believing that you had blueprints of a homicidal gas chamber when your own source clearly explained that it was "part of a delousing facility" that was used to prevent the spread of disease & save lives. Meanwhile, your own source says: "Blueprints for Auschwitz camp found in Germany" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...z-camp-found-in-germany-idUSTRE4A71SC20081109 EXCERPT "One has an 11.66 meter by 11.20 meter room marked “Gaskammer” (gas chamber) that was part of a “delousing facility.”CONTINUED Were you hoping to deceive readers into believing that what you found were blueprints to an actual homicidal gas chamber or did you simply not read the text of your own source? My 2nd question was: Do you agree with another individual that no homicidal gas chambers exist because they were all destroyed & if so, why are dreary morgues, bomb shelters & other ominous looking rooms fraudulently labeled as "gas chambers" if not to deceive visitors & more gullible, poorly informed individuals? If you will please answer these simple questions, we can move on to discuss myths about Auschwitz's crematoria and fact that delousing inmates at Auschwitz was done to prevent the spread of deadly typhus just as immigrants to Ellis Island were deloused in the same manner.
"delousing facility" was put in quotes because we all know that its a lie. they were gas chambers built to murder people thats why they built enough crematoria to burn 700,000 bodies a year. its weird how the Nazis talked about exterminating the Jews time and time again, but you dont believe they'd actually try.
The notion that quotation marks indicate falsity in this text is silly. “Kristallnacht”, "Prisoners of war camp Auschwitz" & numerous other words have quotation marks. Is “Kristallnacht” fictitious because it is in quotes too? Of course there were delousing facilities at Auschwitz, & other camps where typhus was a threat. Delousing was also done at Ellis Island and other points of entry to the US: "AP Explains: Immigrant entry exams had puzzles, delousing'" https://www.americanpress.com/wire/...cle_ec4cdd07-926d-5465-9379-92faa9f48d98.html EXERPT "To enter the U.S. migrants were forced to strip and were sprayed with pesticides. Officials then threw their clothes in a steam dryer. It was later discovered that health workers had been photographing images of naked women and posted the photographs at a nearby cantina. The practice of fumigating Mexican migrants continued until the 1950s."CONTINUED All you have is an 11 year old document of questionable origin that notes the presence a delousing facility that you tried to pass off as a homicidal gas chamber, not an actual homicidal gas chamber as you claimed. You still haven't answered whether you thought that all the gas chambers were destroyed and the dreary, old rooms labeled as "gas chambers" are just fakes to intentionally deceive poorly informed & gullible tourists.
has 3.8 million Mexican immigrants been sent to camps for delousing and never been seen again? 3 million Polish Jews are missing. at least 800,000 Central European Jews are missing. they were all deported to Polish camps. where did they go? hmmmm? cat got ya tongue?
No, the cat(s) & dogs I have don't have my tongue although there's nothing like the yowl of a Siamese cat to get your attention. I'm simply waiting for you to answer my questions then I'll be glad to address your questions about "missing" Jews. Those questions were, again: 1. Why did you try to pass off part of a delousing facility as homicidal gas chambers when your own source(1) calls them "delousing facilities"? Were you hoping to deceive readers into believing that what you found were blueprints to an actual homicidal gas chamber or did you simply not read the text of your own source?(1) Meanwhile, your own source calls them "...part of a delousing procedure: "Blueprints for Auschwitz camp found in Germany" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...z-camp-found-in-germany-idUSTRE4A71SC20081109 EXCERPT "One has an 11.66 meter by 11.20 meter room marked “Gaskammer” (gas chamber) that was part of a “delousing facility.”CONTINUED 2. Do you believe as another forum member does that all the homicidal gas chambers were destroyed & if so, why are old morgues, bomb shelters etc deliberately mislabeled as homicidal "gas chambers" if not to deceive gullible & poorly informed tourists? If you would please stop evading these salient questions, I'd be happy to discuss other issues related to the topic at hand.
oh but he was ok with the Gentile Bolsheviks, who made up the majority of Soviet Bolsheviks and the Soviet leadership???? wtf Grau "zionist bolshevism"?????????? wtf is that? Bolshevism was an internationalist ideology that wanted to TARE DOWN the social constructs of religion and nationality and ethnicity that divided us, and instead unite the people by socio-economic class. there was nothing "zionist" about bolshevism
struggle against Bolshevism and International finance capitalism??? is that why he invaded and ruled France, Belgium, Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary???? is that why more than a million Jews were deported to Poland?????? is that why he signed a deal with the Soviet Communists to let them rule over the Baltic States, Belarus, and Ukraine????? dude, no one is buying this garbage. Literally no one.
you brought up "hitler's war against bolshevism and international finance capitalism". Im just pointing out that this was a false silly mask for Hitler's true agenda: the total domination of europe so as to profit the German people, and the enslavement/extermination of "undesirable peoples". one does not sign deals to divide up Eastern Europe with Communists and provide them with aid and intelligence, if you are in a war against Bolshevism.
More recently, you attempted to prove the existence of homicidal gas chambers but continue to be evasive after your "proof" turned out to be fictitious. For the last several Posts I have been attempting to get you to explain your post # 470, in which you claimed that you had found genuine blueprints of a homicidal gas chamber when your own source clearly articulated that it was "part of a delousing facility" that was used to prevent the spread of disease & save lives and not a "homicidal Gas Chamber" at all. Meanwhile, your own source says: "Blueprints for Auschwitz camp found in Germany" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...z-camp-found-in-germany-idUSTRE4A71SC20081109 EXCERPT "One has an 11.66 meter by 11.20 meter room marked “Gaskammer” (gas chamber) that was part of a “delousing facility.”CONTINUED Since no homicidal gas chambers exist or were ever employed in mass killings, do you concur with another forum member that they were all destroyed or do you believe that the dreary morgues, bomb shelters that are falsely claimed to be gas chambers are actually homicidal gas chambers? These are essentially 3 simple questions: 1. What was your motive for claiming that a delousing facility was a homicidal gas chamber? 2. Where are the hundreds of homicidal gas chambers that would have been needed to gas millions of people? 3. Are the falsely labeled "gas chambers" shown to poorly informed & gullible tourists genuine or fake?
of course they existed. at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, and several other camps. doesn't take "hundreds" to kill a million or so people over a few years, if they are run almost day and night. Auschwitz had the crematoria capacity to incinerate around 700,000 bodies a year. That suggests they expected a shitload of unnatural deaths, much more than any normal "work camp" should ever. now, if you think millions of Jews died in the camps of starvation and tiphus, maybe the Nazis and their evil hateful sadistic bloodthirsty Fascist allies shouldn't have put millions of Jews into camps in the first place!!!
