Yeah and this soldier was a child murderer before he went to combat for years right. Its comforting, its human emotion, it the feel good sense that most humans have. The false sense of security that "it will never happen to me". Please link to a post where I said what he did was justified, please quote. This thread isn't very long so Ill kindly wait. I never once said he was right in what he did, I said that I "understand" how combat messes with your mind and can make you snap. I said I "understand" how this could have happened, and I "understand" the feelings and resentment he must have. And I "understand" that his mind has changed from the time he first stepped foot on the ground overseas until now. I am not defending his actions, I even said he should be locked up. I'm lashing out at those who say "who gives a (*)(*)(*)(*) hes a murderer kill him, turn him over to the Afghans!". It's so easy to call for the lynch mob against what you don't understand. Combat stress is something that you don't understand, not your fault you've never been through it. You would love to be able to sit here and say what you would or wouldn't do from the comfort of your own home. But at the end of the day you have absolutely no idea the person you would be if you went through 4 war tours. Nobody likes not having control of their own life, but its fact, not opinion, that you just flat out don't know. I can 100% guarantee you that when you read stories about veterans coming home from war and murdering their wives and kids and then killing themselves weren't planning on that when they left. They kissed their kids goodbye and told their wives they loved them. A year later they come back as a completely different person, an insane person scarred by the horrors of war, and they murder the family that they loved. Do you honestly think that those people were like that before they deployed? The answer is no. This SSG wasn't like this before he deployed either, but a combination of many different things that war does to the human mind led him to do what he did. Its sad to say it but its a fact of life. You are assuring yourself of what you wouldn't do because its comforting to think you have complete control of yourself and your emotions in any given circumstance. But the FACT is that you don't, admitting that will make you vulnerable in your eyes so you won't admit it, but admitting it or not is irrelevant. You don't know what your state of mind would be after being in a warzone, that's a stone cold fact, whether you choose to accept it or not.
You make a good argument for why people should not join the military and fight in wars. Now imagine how traumatizing it is for the people of the country the war is being waged in. Do they get a pass as well? When the Taliban endures the same traumas in war and then behead a solider do you understand that as well? Do you come to their defense?
*Update* Shock to neighbors Just In http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...hbors-of-soldier-in-afghanistan-massacre-case I just can't believe Bob's the guy who did this," said Paul Wohlberg, a next-door neighbor who said his family was friends with the Bales. "A good guy got put in the wrong place at the wrong time ... I never thought something like this would happen to him." Kassie Holland, who lives next door, said she would often see Bales playing with his two kids and the family together at the modern split-level home. "My reaction is that I'm shocked," she said. "I can't believe it was him. There were no signs. It's really sad. I don't want to believe that he did it." "He always had a good attitude about being in the service. He was never really angry about it. When I heard him talk, he said, it seemed like, 'yeah, that's my job. That's what I do.' He never expressed a lot of emotion toward it." (Read continues in Link)
You have NO idea what various people "have been through". Some of us know horrors you will NEVER imagine. I am not "calling for his head". I would NOT condemn him to death for it either, although, to me, that would be the kindest option if he had ANY humanity or sanity left, even if any of the victims were near or dear to me.. But it is not MY country we invaded. It is not my country's laws that apply. THE USA established that if the crime occurs in OUR country we have aright to not only KILL the criminals involved, we have the right to kill THOUSANDS of other people in revenge. The TINIEST amount of honor on the USA's part towards trying to respect Afghanistan would mean we turn over this person to them (which is why I opposed the whole war from the beginning) for trial.. And I will say it again. If going through ANY or ALL of the above listed horrors had me go out and shoot a bunch of wives and children in their beds, I DEMAND you turn me over to the Afghans. And if I am too sick to realize the monstrosity of what I have done, I would just as soon go to them anyway.
Why? Is this something the US government would have preferred to have covered up for Bradley Manning and Wikileaks to expose? Good that we now know his name, and his face. We can see him for the scumbag he is. Now let him be tried and punished for his horrific deeds.
So what justification are you going to support when the Afghanis who witnessed this massacre do something horrific?
The only real solution at this point is to end SOFA and any other immunities so that any further actions will require soldiers or any fighter in the region to be held responsible by the locals. All troops but trainers will get pulled out like in Iraq but this probably won't happen until the US Embassy is complete or almost complete. Wow it sounds like it will be bigger than Iraq's. http://www.salon.com/2010/11/04/obama_kabul_embassy_expanded/
The people at the top of the chain should be held responsible for this attrocity as well as the numerous other attrocities that have occurred over the past decade over there. Cheers
Lol, guys like this do four tours of combat, while the rest of the 99% of America can worry about important things, like who will be on "Dancing with the Stars." You sit on your asses, and do nothing while your government sends your fellow citizens back repeatedly to fight a (*)(*)(*)(*)ing pointless war for the last ten years, then you act shocked and horrified when some poor bastard snaps, and waxes a bunch of other poor bastards. The majority of you are nothing but a bunch of lazy hypocrites.
That's right they fight a pointless war for ten years but I'm not shocked, I'm not horrified that was their choice to go to war, to serve four tours, and if what he is accused of is true kill 16 women and children. He's not an automaton, he's not a monster, and he's not a knight. He's a human being the only thing that makes him different from you and me is what he has done and the choices he made. I don't even despise him honestly, I pity him because he made some choices he couldn't handle. His failure to make better choices have now wrought these consequences and those families are (*)(*)(*)(*)ed. So let's stop (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)ing about who to blame because we all could have made better choices. Let's stop wasting energy on bringing one another down and instead try to improve the situation so this bull(*)(*)(*)(*) doesn't happen again. Now I recommended scrapping SOFA as well as other immunities. When soldiers in Iraq were denied immunity most all of them left honestly that would be the best way to pull out of Afghanistan. Deny immunity from local and international law for all people not just Americans and create a real sense of responsibility for all parties involved.
So, I'm sure you wouldn't mind getting a draft notice in the mail, so you won't have to look down your nose at people who choose to carry a burden that you're obviously wouldn't do in a voluntarily manor, huh? I just noticed that you're not even from my country, so what you have to say on this matter, means absolutely nothing to me. Kick rocks.
I'm sure that most of those who are serving overseas have their hearts in the right place and try to do the best they can under the circumstances. The problem is at the top echelons where chickenhawk war profiteers are in charge. Those who create these bull(*)(*)(*)(*) wars for profit and keep them going as long as possible should be tried for war crimes and locked up indefinitely. The notion that these US soldiers are "fighting for my freedom" by being involved in bloody, contrived turd hunts like Viet Nam, Iraq or Afghanistan is a crock of crap. If the Viet Namese, the Iraqis or Afghanis attack the US, I'll be right here to defend my own freedom. The enemy is within our own government which is infested with lying, theiving, murderous whores at all levels. Cheers
Well I'm sure you won't even bother to read this but if my country reinstated the draft and greatly increased our presence in Afghanistan then I would gladly ignore the call of the politicians, the war profiteers, and ignorant people. I would rather eek out any existence against policies of slavery then accept them. I will never die or kill because anyone commands it of me not matter who it is. I am well above cries for killing as all people are. I will only ever kill at my own discretion and there will be consequences for that. The only thing I will ever let determine if I kill any other human being for defense of the innocent, for peace, for justice, or for hatred, or anything else is me and I refuse to put myself in a situation where I could lose control to anyone or anything else. Most of all I will never let myself blame anyone for the consequences I wrought and that is called personal responsibility and generally militaries the world over need to learn before they are treated like productive institutions.
But, see, ONLY the USA gets to commit mass murder on civilians in RESPONSE to an attack on civilians by a few foreign criminal/terrorists. If Americans kill foreign civilians, why, the foreign country should just trust us to do the Right Thing! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings#Comments_by_Representative_Murtha
You do know that I agree with you FD. Actually, I was hoping that other posters would comment on my comment.
Sounds like a no I haven't. Please show the quote where I stated him murdering women and children was honorable. I already had one.
..........and then come back and talk the talk. Its easy for you to sit in the comfort of your home a comfort that this SSG has helped to provide and talk about you would do this and you would do that, tell you what get your ass up off the couch pick up a weapon and stand a post like this soldier has done and then come back and give us your vast experience of knowledge on combat stress.
Because Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai said so and now wants America out ... http://www.globalnews.ca/video/karz...e+shooter/video.html?v=2210785253#top+stories
You say it's "sad" they would ID this guy then you go and post his complete bio along with his picture.....couldn't his home address?
Well, you see, I'm behind our boys all the way ... Bush spent years praising Islam as the *The Religion of Peace and Noble Faith that brings Hope & Comfort* then installed the Koran in the Whitehouse Library and from time to time made our boys apologize and kiss the Koran everytime incidents of shooting holes in it on the battlefield arose ... Keyword here is Battlefield ... Al-Quedists disguising themselves as Taliban and conducting operations as our friends while hiding amongst the populace ... see the 27 blocks of the Greenzone war planning ... Yes, Bush sent your Fathers & Brothers & Sons & Daughters & Friends to blow these people back to Muhammad ... who want too be ... while taking our boys with them ... By the way, where is Bush ?
I actually thought long and hard about it ... I decided Political Forum ... and as the premier political forum ... can't be denied ... this was the passionate thought that was the compelling factor ...
You typed: 'His act may not have been honorable, but I believe his record would speak otherwise.' http://www.politicalforum.com/1061021787-post16.html If he murdered those women and children, is he honorable in your eyes...yes or no?
ANYONE can judge ANYONE on ANYTHING in America. It's called 'free speech'. Or do you wish to remove that from the Constitution?
