Incomplete genitalia is not a sure sign of two separate functioning organs. 99% of the cases only one of the organs wrorks and functions as it should. No Hermaphrodite in history has had a complete uterus/vagina and a complete fully functioning penis. Most times they are just labeled Hemaphrodites just to categorize the abnormality.
I don't think I understand your question. What does a straight man fall in love with? Is it really just a woman's "parts", and not her whole being? It's easy enough to fall in & out of love. A person can be attracted to many different traits; aesthetically appealing physical attributes, demeanor, the sound of another person's voice, shared interests, sense of humor, etc. The specifics differ form person to person, not based on orientation. Real, abiding love is based on a deeper understanding of the other person and everything they bring to the relationship. That takes the willingness to invest one's time in learning about the other person, and to accept the negatives with the positives. I wouldn't imagine it's any different whether you're gay, straight, or something in-between. So what differentiates straight people from gay people, then? I'm not entirely sure that I know a good answer to that. At first glance, one might be tempted to say a difference in attraction to gender-specific traits, but in reality everyone has some mix of masculine and feminine traits. So I'd then be tempted to suppose it's the ratio of those traits, except that there's pretty broad variation among persons of the same gender. People aren't necessarily universally attracted to the same balance of traits either; some gay guys like really masculine men, while others prefer more effeminate men, with plenty of room for tastes that fall somewhere in between. So I wouldn't really be able to tell you what gay men find attractive about the same sex, because it's a matter of personal tastes. Personally, machismo turns me off, but I don't want some crybaby, either. I'm a middle of the road kind of guy. Good luck with that. Very few people understand how my mind works, apart from my partner. I suppose that's ultimately why we ended up together and have stayed together for going on 12 years - the effortlessness of our communication with each other. Not any one characteristic. Some preliminary brain research is interesting, as there have been findings that the brains of gay male subjects had some similarities to those of straight female subjects, while retaining other characteristics shared with straight male subjects. But the research is still in its infancy, and I'm not prepared to say that it's conclusive of anything.
??? Pardon me for thinking that we're all part of the same society. But thanks for confirming that you created this thread because you have an anti-gay agenda.
I'd also like to know why the perception that "gays want to change the laws for heterosexuals" inspires obsession with the sex lives of gay people, since that was my original question, to which I received what seems to be a complete non-sequitur type of answer.
Most heterosexuals want to change the laws for heterosexuals too. I've not met anyone who doesn't think some aspect of the law would be better if it were changed one way or another. I've no doubt there are laws you'd like to see changed too but that doesn't give me any desire to know anything about your sex life. (FYI, I'm against the death penalty and haven't got any for ages)
Who was talking about two complete and fully functional male and female sex organs on the same person? I never made that claim, nor does it have anything to do with what I was saying. People don't necessarily developed as fully male ore female, regardless of full function or either or both parts, and there are many more parts to being male or female than strictly the presence and function of a penis or vagina.
Thank you again Periquinne for your response above. What if we turned the original question upside down and asked at what age or under what circumstances can a man become certain he is straight?
Personally my instinct is to put my male genitals into a woman. Sorry, I guess that sounds pretty weird.
I can't imagine it's really any different; I expect by their mid to late teens most straight people would be pretty sure of their orientation, whether or not they're sexually active. I'm not persuaded that sexual experience really confirms anything. The singular difference from gay people is that straight people are socialized to be heterosexual, so there's no disconnect between their orientation and societal expectations. Their orientation enjoys considerable societal affirmation. It's so pervasive that straight people just take it for granted. Can you imagine what it would be like to grow up in a world where you had the opposite experience? One where the vast majority of people are gay, and society is organized around their orientation, while your heterosexual orientation is commonly characterized in the most negative terms thinkable and your sexual behavior is subject to criminal prosecution with a conviction resulting in hefty fines and/or jail time? It would be difficult to find other people who are heterosexual like you because 1) there would be far fewer of you, and 2) the threat of violence, prosecution, societal disapproval would force most straight people to be closeted. Any attempt to assert your equal place in society would be met with considerable rancor. You would be bombarded daily with negative messaging about your difference in orientation. You would have few, if any, positive role models for dealing with your sexuality. Few straight characters on TV, in movies or literature. Those that did exist would be the butt of jokes; gross caricatures reinforcing negative stereotypes that have nothing to do with what you actually feel, how you wish to live, etc. Even the word used to describe your orientation would be used by the anti-straight as a way to analogously characterize things perceived to be stupid, undesirable, inferior, etc. I doubt you really can imagine such a scenario, yet it's what I've experienced most of my life as a gay man living in an often hostile society dominated by a majority straight population. And please, don't mistake this as an attempt to play on emotions or seek sympathy. Nor is this meant to be a tirade against straight people. I'm merely giving you the context in which a gay person has to come to terms with being different from the majority. Perhaps you can tell me how the unfolding of heterosexual orientation differs from homosexual orientation? When do straight boys develop interests in girls? Is there really no attraction there before puberty? Why would a straight person have reason to doubt their orientation unless they were in fact experiencing strong attraction toward the same sex? Are heterosexuals really bisexuals who have chosen to only acknowledge and act on their feelings of attraction to the opposite sex while burying/ignoring any feelings of attraction toward the same sex? I have to say, whenever people start up with the whole "exposure to gayness will make my child gay" crap, it makes me wonder if straight people are hiding something; are they really all just a few beers away from acting on long repressed "gay feelings", and fear it so much that they have to keep gay people marginalized and invisible? 'Cuz that would be really weird, so I have to think it can't possibly be true. The thought of having sex with a woman doesn't make me want to vomit, yet that's exactly the sentiment often expressed about ANY display of affection between men because people's brains seemingly run directly to picturing some image of anal sex, as if that was what all gay people do and prefer. I don't get it. At what age and under what circumstances do you think a man can become certain he is straight?
I'm making that claim because if you're going to bring them in, then they have to be valid to be part of the conversation. if they don't function, they are not valid genetalia and thus are nust abnormaalities confined to that one person. Because if Hermaphroditism was normal, you'd have 5 outta 10 babies born that way, but that'snot reality. It's rare. Also, another key factor in the gender separation is hormones. males have hormones that females don't and vice versa. which is why hormone therapy is big inthe gay/lesbian community. they are literally trying to buck the laws of nature. the Laws of GOD. Lady Gaga Gaga is rare. He/she explained herself on youtube. go google it. she even says herself she's not normal.
Now you're just making (*)(*)(*)(*) up. Why would a gay man or lesbian take hormones? Citation to support your ridiculous claim? People who resort to their religion when they've run out of sensible arguments should not be taken seriously.
Ever heard of Hormone therapy? I saw a show on it on Discovery health Channel where a guy that wanted to be a woman so bad he took hormones therapy until he grew breasts. and another lady took them until she grew a beard. Those are Gay community people too, didn't you know that? Gays don't just look like this [ They look like this too
Are you so dense that you don't understand the difference between gay people and transgender people? Nvm, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that question. Carry on.
:sigh: Do I really have to explain to you the difference between a person who is transsexual versus one who is gay? Are you really that ignorant of the issues you're attempting to discuss? Hormone therapy is something that transsexuals do. It is not something done by gay people who aren't also transsexuals. Most people who have a same-sex orientation are not transsexuals. It's also probably true that most transsexual people are not same-sex oriented. It's beyond idiotic to assume that a gay person wants to be the opposite sex. You really don't want to get me started on the phrase "gay community". By implication, it should only include people who are gay men and lesbians, and these might actually be better considered separate communities whose interests don't always overlap. Only a small minority in either group would also identify as transgender, which is itself a broad term that covers several groups by itself, including people who are transsexual. If you want to talk about transsexuals and hormone therapy, start a separate thread. It has nothing to do with the topic of people coming to terms with their same-sex orientation. Totally different topics and a mostly different group of people.
The question was if you could be "born" with qualities of both sex, in one case homosexuality, in another hermaphroditism. The fact that it's rare or not is irrelevant. It's those very hormones that often screw up and don't act appropriately in the womb. And I don't know a single gay/lesbian that takes hormone therapy. I do know some heterosexual women who do though. Shall we go over the list of things we do as humans where we defy nature? Again, who was talking about being "normal"?
They float in the same circles. it's no secret. You tellin' me that a lesbian playing the role of the male is not acting out in a transgender way? it's the fantasy of it all. nevermind, your gray matter is shuttin' down on me. time to reboot it.
And they rarley do get mixed up. And there is NO SUCH THING as having a gay gene. NONE. So you can save that arguement. Hermaphroditism is something that happens genetically, homosexuality is something that happens socially. I work with a lesbian whose playing the male, taking them. she's growing a mustache now and rides a Harley like a guy. so just because YOU don't have any in your circle of gay friends, doesn't mean that the "butch" broads are not a part of the Gay action going down. And your info is news to me anyway, because is being Gay just a guy thing? I thought LGBT encompassed the entire Gay community? what I miss? did yall splinter off or what?...LOL
Periquinne, I don't pay much attention to who posts what in this forum, so I'm not sure if you saw my post in another recent thread in which I related my early childhood experience. I'll expand it here. My family was overprotective of me as a child. My parents separated before I was born and my grandparents never did anything physical in my presence. In pre-school years I was acquainted with only a few cousins. One had a widowed father. Two siblings had a divorced father. The one cousin I was closest to was a girl whose father who traveled frequently for work, so she too seemed to have a one-parent family. I was told that I would marry her when I grew up. (That's a family tradition but it seems to have ended.) I kissed her. She wiped it off. I kissed her again until she finally discovered that I'd stop kissing her if she didn't wipe it off. We were about four and I haven't kissed her since. Until age eight I didn't know boys and girls looked different below the belt. My wife's best friend married an artist. He painted a topless picture of her and they put it in their living room, so I was acquainted with breasts. She was unattractive and the portrait didn't help. Prior to age eight I pursued several pretty girls. Most of them cried when I kissed them or tried to hold hands. That confused me. It always seemed to work on tv. At my cousin's sixth birthday party I was one of only two boys invited. When I came in all the girls chased me around the apartment. After running in every possible direction for a few minutes I ended up with one of the best alone in a bedroom. She cried. I was also attracted to a few boys and men on tv, but they were the ones with feminine faces. Now the question is: if I was attracted to girls who I thought had penises and boys who I knew had penises, what does that mean?
I wasn't making that argument to begin with. Well, we know people don't necessarily develop just one way. Genetics are only one cause of atypical of development. This socialization appears to have a strikingly profound impact on their physiology. Yes, the LGBT would encompass the entire gay community, but the gay community doesn't encompass the entire LGBT community. What you're referring to is the transsexuals, which are part of the LGBT, but not the gay/lesbian community.
It seems you were attracted to feminine attributes, without specific knowledge of every part of what it meant to be feminine. Did you decide to stick with feminine boys once you discovered they were the only one's with penises, or did the interest in feminine boys diminish as the growing age in boys typically presented more and more masculine features?
Some do, some don't. My partner and I chiefly socialize with straight people. That doesn't make us part of the straight community. His friends are mostly Roman Catholic. Socializing with them doesn't make us part of the Roman Catholic community. You make a lot of ridiculous assumptions about gay people, and when we try to enlighten you as to the truth, instead of having the wisdom to take in and process new information, you cling all the more tightly to your mistaken ideas about us. Typical misapplication of heterosexual roles to gay/lesbian sex. There is no "male role" in lesbian sex. There is no "female role" in sex between gay men. We aren't pretending to be an opposite-sex couple when we're having sex. The idea of a lesbian pretending to be "the man" or a gay man pretending to be "the woman" is a bigoted fiction. Projection.
Is she taking hormones? If she is, then she's probably a transsexual. If not, she could still be transgender, but more likely she's just a lesbian choosing to accentuate her masculine traits. Everyone has both masculine and feminine traits. The fact that it's typical for men to be more masculine and women more feminine doesn't mean that everyone conforms to those norms. There are effeminate straight men and butch straight women as well. Not being able to tell the difference between these things doesn't somehow make you an expert on "the gay community". Acting as if you are when talking to an actual gay person just makes you appear to be arrogant, stubborn and either unwilling or incapable of appreciating the diversity that exists in the human race. It can encompass both gay men and lesbians, but may also refer to gay men as distinct from lesbians, depending on where you are and the context in which it is used. LGBT isn't "the gay community". It's a coalition in which the letters represent separate communities working together; L(esbian), G(ay men), B(isexuals) and T(ransgender). There are sometimes additional letters used; I(ntersex), Q(uestioning), Q(ueer - people who don't define there sexuality in more conventional terms), A(sexuals), and A(llies). The last should give you a clue - it's a political coalition; doesn't mean we all "run in the same circles" or consider ourselves a singular community.
