Capitalism is economic tyranny Socialism is economic democracy.

There are certain self-defeating bad ideas the left seems to fixate on, and no amount of fact and logic can shake their allegiance to them; abolishing or heavily taxing inheritance is one of them. Others are rent control, personal income and corporate profits taxes, public housing, higher minimum wages, union monopolies, and nationalization of industry. In recent decades, anti-fossil-fuel hysteria has joined that list.

 

Who is 'the community', and how are they paid this 'value'? Be very specific.

 

Well you know what? I'm onboard. Turns out the land you're currently on is the only place on Earth that I can conduct my sun worship ceremony. I've connected with everyone in the community, paid them a penny, and they all agree that you've deprived me of my right to sun worship on that exact spot. Your lease is now expired. I'm going to need you to clear out your possessions by Tuesday so that I can set up the Shaman Yurt with enough time for the fire inspector to sign off. You can leave my screwdriver in the mailbox. I'll need it for the Yurt.

I'm so glad that I've come to realize that my mere existence on the Earth confers to me usage rights of all the Earth's natural bounty. Oh, and I'll expect the check for where ever you decide to move to by Friday, thanks. I'll need something to tip the caterer with.

 

There is a possibility of liberty and justice. The problem we see in this thread is that neither side wants them: the right wants to continue to sacrifice people's liberty to maintain the injustice of property in privilege, and the left wants to sacrifice other people's liberty, and property in the fruits of their labor, to establish the injustice of countervailing privilege.

The socialist hierarchy is a little different because it is based on political skill, not property in privilege.

 

No matter how noble the idea, human nature will ensure that it quickly reverts back to money/power.

It's the law of the jungle, BIO, and will not be thwarted by anything but totalitarianism.

 

The community consists of the set of people who live under one land administration authority (all governments administer possession and use of land because that's what government is). The land administration authority would send a monthly bill for the market rent of each land parcel to its exclusive tenure holder, and the holder would pay the bill much as one pays one's monthly rent, mortgage, or utility bill. The proceeds would go to the treasury of the local government to fund the desirable public services and infrastructure that make the land users willing to pay the market rent for their secure, exclusive tenure. Those who fell into arrears would have a modest grace period to either pay their debt, or sell any fixed improvements to another prospective user who is prepared to pay the market rent and vacate the land, much as happens now with people who fall into arrears on their property tax or mortgage payments.

 

Let me ask another way .. how does someone qualify as a member of that community? And how is it proved? Who will keep track of the constant flow and migration of people?

And that's just two of the endless problems with this very outdated idea. It will never work with a mobile global population of 8 billion.

 

Money and power are not the problem. GREED -- unfortunately mistranslated as "love of money" -- is the problem. Empowering greed is not a law of nature, it is a choice we have made. And we have the power to choose differently.

No. Evolution has given us rights that supersede the law of the jungle -- if we have the will to secure them. Rights are what have enabled us to leave the jungle behind. So the law of the jungle does not apply to human beings unless we let it.

 

By being a resident citizen of that jurisdiction.

The usual documentation.

The same public employees who do it now.

Those are not problems specific to this idea, which there is no reason to believe is outdated.

Sure it will. Why wouldn't it?

 

Yes, greed/money/power .. all the above. These will always win, because they're the default setting. Whenever we exist beyond tribal subsistence level, our nature compels us to 'stockpile'. It's a survival instinct.

If we'd evolved beyond survival drivers, we'd be dead. No one would bother getting out of bed in the morning.

 

What is the criteria for 'resident'? 24hrs? a week? a month? three months? a year? And what about those people who miss out by a day, and argue their case?

Dude, there'd be exponentially more movement under such a model. There's no way it could be policed. And yes, it would absolutely be a problem specific to your idea. How could it not?

Because 8 billion people would all be trying to game the system! At present our mobility is limited by private property .. and that's a very good thing! Much harder to game the system, or even to migrate around, under our system.

 

Look I'm agreeing with you. Shaman Jeff and I, I know Jeff, right? Not exactly the name you'd expect for a terrifying elder witch doctor, but this guy's the real deal. I've seen him settle arguments with a straw doll and toad venom in ways that are not to be believed. Anyway Jeff and I conducted a survey and the greatest amount brilliance we have ever observed is emanating from the exact land you are currently occupying. We simply have to worship it right there.

The community has spoken. Time to pack your bags. I know you might feel embarrassed that you deprived me of my right for so long, but it's okay. I'm not mad. Just do the right thing and pay me when you leave. I know you're not a greedy land owner.

You can even stay for the lighting of the seals if you like. Bring your own goats blood though. Jeff is not much on sharing.

 

Without reading further, I know with 100% certainty that you are about to just make stupid $#!+ up again. Watch:

See? Nothing but stupid $#!+.

Fine. Pay the community the market rent for depriving everyone else of it (i.e., a bit more than I am willing to pay), and pay me the assessed value of my fixed improvements, which you will be depriving me of.

So you have decided to go with just makin' stupid $#!+ up again. OK. I expected no less. But somehow, it's always disappointing to have my (very) low estimate of apologists for landowner privilege's intellectual integrity reconfirmed.

See? You have merely realized that you have to resort to just makin' $#!+ up in order to have anything to say at all. It's always the same.

No, my lease has not expired. You have no power to overrule a court that respects the relevant laws and contracts governing possession and use of land. You will have to wait until the expiration of whatever contractual arrangement I have with the local land administration. If they have accepted a payment for 10 years in advance, that's how long you will have to wait. Until then, you will kindly pack up your stupid garbage and get out.

<yawn> Is that really the hill you have chosen for your credibility and integrity to die on?

I have exclusive legal possession until a court says otherwise, because unlike you, I have paid the community for it. So you can **** and leave my premises. Now.

That's part of the meaning of having a right to liberty. You just want to own other people's rights to liberty. Simple.

Why are you pretending to be unaware of the fact that the land administration gets the market rent, not you?

As Trump would tweet: Sad.

 

You mean we can't have 8 billion people hang out in Martha's vineyard all at once? But it's their right gosh darn it.

 

No you can't.

Anyway, people will naturally want to stay in Bangladesh ... even though they can move to Martha's Vineyard any time they like under our pal's system.

 

Residency records would be updated monthly, to match the subsidy repayments and associated universal individual exemption periods. People seem to find monthly rent, mortgage, and utility payments natural and convenient.

I'm not responsible for correcting people's stupidity and dishonesty. Some low-level bureaucrat will be overpaid to patiently cite the law to them.

Why? There'd be no reason for it.

Garbage with no basis in fact.

You have offered no reason to think so, nor will you ever be doing so.

Because every advanced country already deals with such issues routinely.

You can't game justice. You can only game injustice.

True: homeownership limits labor mobility and makes labor markets less efficient.

Nope. It chains people to privilege, making them dependent on evil. When people are dependent on evil, they take the side of evil against good. Like you.

No, it's easy to game the current system, which is why the results are so unjust. And migrating around is very broadening. You should try it.

 

See? You have realized that you have no choice but to just make stupid $#!+ up.

 

See? You have realized that you have no choice but to just make stupid $#!+ up.

 

See? You have realized that you have no choice but to just make stupid $#!+ up.

 

Money and power are just tools, and most people are not greedy. It is the empowerment of greed by law that forces good people to act as if they are greedy, and converts money and power into engines of destruction.

There's nothing wrong with stockpiling. The problem is legalized taking.

Silliness. "Evolving beyond" survival drivers is self-contradictory.

 

Yes, most people are 'greedy'. It's our animal state of being. We're either looking to gain something for nothing, or working hard to stockpile beyond need. Neither is better than the other .. they're both iterations of what you call greed.

What is 'taking'? The able-bodied welfare recipient taking the fruit of the labour of others? The absorption of clean air, land, and water by those determined to enjoy their planet-killing pleasures?

Exactly my point.

 

If that was wrong, please explain why the Bangladeshi won't immediately move to Martha's Vineyard.

 

Yes if only THEY could control all the wealth and resources what a wonderful it would be for everyone or so they think.

 

First, thanks to all who are participating in this thread - good thoughts and good ideas and interesting debate.

Questions directed to "bringiton":

In the state I reside in, there is no state income tax - instead there is property tax. A landowner must pay the property tax every year, and if the landowner doesn't pay, the land can be confiscated by the authorities after due process. Another way to look at this situation is that the landowner is renting the land from the "community." Does this in any way coincide with the system you are talking about? I realize that it is different, but in practice, does it end up being the same thing?

Considering the history (say, 1650s to the present) of the land that eventually became the United States - private ownership of land came into the equation quite early. As settlers moved westward, various governments deeded parcels of land to settlers and companies (for example, railroads) with the expectation that they would improve and protect the property, which in turn extended the reach of said government. Of course, much of the land was simply "settled on" without any written permission. So, considering that private ownership of land has been around since the founding of the country, would it be possible to change the system of private ownership of land to the system you are championing? I suppose if one were starting from scratch and building a new country, your system could be put in place with ease. But how to do it now?

 

The lines for the ferry would be brutal.