Capitalism vs Collectivism- whats the real debate?

This isn't very cunning! Capitalism naturally encourages market power (and that then blurs the difference between public and private sectors). Marxism, as a political economic school, is extremely important in understanding outcomes in capitalism. Labour economics essentially had to steal concepts in order to fully understand phenomena such as involuntary unemployment

 

Given that we (almost) all can agree that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness requires a degree of both capitalism and collectivism, and we're all just arguing over how much of each is best, ....

I'm not at all convinced that the above statement holds true among the various players in the american power structure.

 

What about peaceful trade between individuals of their labours or labour production for that of another/others? A little reasoned charitable giving is much more productive long term than collectivism, without diminishing individual freedoms.

 

The statement just says "we need a mixed economy". You're right that it doesn't hold true. You have to factor in how the public sector will typically reinforce private sector inefficiency. That's the non-spiffing interaction of the median voter model and the influence costs of the rich elite (i.e. a tendency towards supporting consensus which enables profiteering to be supported by both petty left and petty right)

 

Sorry, I just do not see opposing political forces when it comes to sodomizing the economic system to benefit the aristocracy to the detriment of society as a whole.

 

capitalism and corporatism are opposites. Liberals don't have IQ to grasp that. They think corporatism is criticism of capitalism not socialism. Go figure.

 

the pure beauty of capitalism is that everyone participates freely and voluntarily so no one can get screwed. Libcommienazis feel that by introducing govt violence to favor some it will improve upon freedom.

 

do you mean violent libcommie charity at gunpoint or private peaceful charity? There is a huge difference.

 

yes, ground work like getting every citizen the same pair of black pajama clothes that Mao got for everyone so they would forget their individuality and become mindless libcommie automatons.

 

You're talking tosh as usual. Capitalism guarantees market power (and therefore influence costs). The difference between public and private sector is blurred. Anyone suggesting otherwise is clueless about economic reality

 

under Republican capitalism it is not blurred. Sorry to rock your world.

 

That sounds lovely. And then there's objective reality and what this system is doing to american society as a whole.

 

We're approaching fascism wherein the interests of capital, the business community, and the government are one in the same. All of our endless wars and occupations are now launched upon that premise. We wage wars and economically cannibalize society to pay for these wars for the interests of Wall Street, the donor and “job creator” class.

 

Agree. Capitalism is a collective endeavour. Humans co-operate to share resources and labour in common cause.

Capitalism is not the opposite of collectivism, it is a subset of it.

I'm not sure there is much to debate between individualism and collectivism however, individualists, self sufficiency, while not impossible is exceptionally rare in humans. Almost unheard of.

 

It is an illusion leveraged by those who have managed to extract and concentrate societal wealth.

 

if so why is the liberal so afraid to provide some facts about objective reality.

 

collectivism usually refers to communism and individualism to capitalism. Do you understand?

 

Why would anyone even attempt to converse with another who has nothing but lables to assign/sling? Rather pointless.

 

difference between capitalism and communism is not illusion!! obviously. Ever heard of East/West Germany?
West Germany did 10 times better yet hear you are supporting East Germany. Why not read history so you will know better?

 

ever see a conservative who is afraid to debate and looks for excuses to run away? What does that teach you?

 

I undertsand, but wholly disagree.
Some people with an anti capitalist or a communist agenda "usually" choose to spin it that way. That is all.

 

spin what, what way??

 

East Germany has no great natural resources and is not a geographical nexus between many trading countries.
Now they are both unified politically, East Germany is still doing 10 times worse than West Germany.

 

Spin the debate this way.

To associate capitalism with individualism and hence selfish behaviour when it is in fact co-operative behaviour. Joint ownership and not individual ownership. Shared rewards and not individual rewards.

The idea is to brand capitalism anti-social and brand their own rival systems of mutual co-operation, morally superior.

 

interesting that they would try to make the individual selfish. It's anti science or anti Darwin. if the strong take care of the weak too much you reverse evolution and the species dies.