Catalan President Carlos Puigdemont ARRESTED in Germany

Sobo, Britain and Scotland are not the same thing. That is all you need to know. The rest is for anyone interested in the topic rather than directed at you.

Now to bring this back on topic the attempt to arrest Politicians through the European Arrest Warrant. I did find that papers by last night were saying that the decision regarding Puigdemont will probably be decided the week after Easter. However it remains that wherever I look the only thing that they seem to think they may extradite him on is miss-appropriation of funds. i.e. using Government Funds for the Referendum. However I am not sure about this at all. Earlier I put in a quote which seemed to suggest that this would only be appropriate if they find him guilty of sedition.

https://theconversation.com/catalon...arges-brought-against-carles-puigdemont-86715

Sedition means "conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch." and from what I have been reading people writing I do not think they are going to find him guilty of that so I think it is still very open about Puigdemont.

It was made clear that Spain had made a particular effort to get him arrested in Germany believing they would find they could extradite him easily, though again it is not looking like it will be that easy.

On the other side this Guardian article suggests Spain made a big mistake in getting Carla Ponsati arrested in Scotland. They suggest possibly Spain was not aware that there was a different justice system in Scotland to England and of course would have expected May to be totally behind extradition. Instead they have a real fight on their hands. I mentioned her crowd justice fund raiser for her legal fees which apparently by the time it was at £200,000 was a record - though that is getting money from people all over Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/31/catalan-carla-ponsati-crowdfunding-scotland-spain

He also says she will have the right of appeal if they rule for her extradition as would Spain if they do not. I don't think that is the case in Germany.

 

Germany will not risk relations with a core ally over this non issue. I promise you, Spain will get him.

 

The thing is if that were the position Merkel would probably have said that she would listen to the arguments and if she felt they were not right she would change the result - though not say who for...but she has said a) that it would be inappropriate because of the way your federal system works and also because she wants the result not to be a political one. She wants it to be made by the court.

This is the same as Scotland is doing except it is saying both will have the right of appeal - rather than that decision being made by the 'crown' which I guess would have been May here though not impossibly Sturgeon but Scotland has also been very clear that it wants the court to make the decision. I would think we might still here that Puigdemont is also able to appeal if that is the way it usually works where he is being charged. I am not saying it is and have not been able to get any information on it but if Germany is as Merkel says going the same way as Scotland and leaving the decision to the courts, it could be.

In reality at the moment both Scotland and Germany are keeping clear of having any political responsibility either way. It is down to the courts.

 

Bad News for you )

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...ltschaft-will-puigdemont-ausliefern-1.3929347

The state persecutor agreed to deportation

 

You keep implying this but this isn't an emotional thing for me.

Of course. The prosecutor would agree to that. That is his job. The defence will also put his case that he should not be extradited.

Oh did you know that Israel had come to an agreement with the UN to send some of its African Refugees to Germany?

 

Oh did you know Germany refused and Netanjahu cancelled this one day Later?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1dd09e-3718-11e8-af3c-2123715f78df_story.html

You cry now? You can have them.

 

I did note that Israel refused and I have read my allowed no of washington post articles for this month so could not read that one but it did not look like it was saying Germany refused.

Here is what was happening. You of course will feel much in common with the Israel Government and their desire for an ethnic nationalist state. They were intent on deporting their Refugees into hell. The Israelis had welcomed them when they arrived but then the Government started talking about them being Infiltrators and Rapists you know as racists always do.- anyway to cut a long story short Israel were giving Refugees the choice of either being deported back to Africa where they would again be in danger and where many who have been sent back have already been killed or go to jail for an indefinite period. Of course they tell them all sorts of nice things are going to happen, they will be looked after, get citizenship and so on but we know from those who have already been sent that this does not happen. Then a really interesting thing happened. There have been loads of videos on Israelis going on racist marches against the Refugees usually incited by the Government who also uses all the terms it uses against the Palestinians on them...but then something unexpected happened. The Israelis who lived with the Refugees started fighting for them. Rabbis even started talking about hiding them in their attics and these people took the issue to court and managed to get a halt on the deportations. Netanyahu responded by coming up with the deal with the UN. About 16000 would be allowed to go to Canada, Germany and Italy and Israel would keep the remaining ones. OMG did the rest of them go crazy. They would not have it. Bennett believed that this would make people believe Israel was a country which would offer hope to those facing genocide and the like. This must not happen he said. The deal must be stopped. He said this even though Israel has built a wall around itself and ghettoed itself in so that no one else can get in. Netanyahu had suspended the deal and Bennet was demanding it was stopped. Israel must not be a country which offers help to even one refugee. Last time I heard about two hours ago that was where it stood.

Not my emotions. It isn't to do with Germany but Israel. I just put it in to see your reaction.

 

Our government denied this Deal. Italy denied as Well. We dont want those 3rd worlders. Maybe canada Takes them

 

So has he been deported then Sobo?

I know the answer - not only has he not but the German court has ruled he cannot be extradited for rebellion charges and so he has been released on bail. Not what you were expecting at all. However I do accept they are still thinking they might be able to do it on 'misuse of money'.

He's enjoying chatting though

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/carles-puigdemont-germany-prison-bail-spain-catalonia

He's apparently going back to Germany but says he will return once a week until he hopes his solicitor will have managed to get your courts to change their minds about 'misuse of funds'. He is only on £66,000 bail.

Thousands of yellow ribbons all around the Barcelona stadium as supporters chant Freedom, Freedom so looks like Spain has not yet managed to destroy their spirits.

https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/981613731934285837

PS Sorry to hear about the tragedy in Munster today and appreciate you bringing in the details of who caused it.

 

Spanish authorities considering appealing the German court’s rejection of Spain’s extradition request:

Legal procedure is complicated and the language quite precise, Spain and most of the EU use a procedure unlike what applies in English-speaking commonlaw jurisdictions, so it is difficult to accurately translate procedural developments in judicial matters. In this instance the main idea is that the issue with Puigdemont (and the other separatists’) extradition must remain purely procedural and that judicial authorities may not delve into substantive matters that may form the basis for the requested extradition.

Current extradition procedure among EU members requires only a determination the crime charged exists in the extraditing jurisdiction (it does in this case), not whether the evidence adduced by Spain’s prosecution is sufficient under German law. Apparently Judge Llarena is concerned the German court explored these substantive aspects in rejecting the extradition request for Puigdemont.

Human rights and democratic principles are entirely different matters, under Spanish law (which applies to Puigdemont’s prosecution) it is illegal to arrange, convene, organize, authorize and finance a referendum to secede, this is unquestionably what the evidence shows Puigdemont did. Under Spanish law Puigdemont is a criminal.​

 

spain is going to far in this in general ever since the way they treated the referendum up to now, it just shows what kind of police state they stil are in the end.

on a sidenote there is a investigation going in belgium wich may lead to a bit of a diplomatic issue between belgium and spain
apearently they found gps trackers under puigdemont his car in februari.
they suspect spanish agents/intelligence and that might be how they tracked his return trip, wich would explain how they knew where to find him.

obviously they dont apreciate it here. it is expected that the spanish embassy wil have to explain themself after the current vacation

 

Made a typing mistake there. It is Belgium he is going back to.

 

Think they will be at least as unhappy with Clara Ponsati's trial

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/31/catalan-carla-ponsati-crowdfunding-scotland-spain

He has made it clear he is in for the long haul, appeals and whatever.

 

Puigdemont could face 12-15 years just on the misappropriation on public funds charge, he shouldn't be mouthing off about being a political prisoner:

Misappropriation of public funds for an unlawful purpose is a crime in Germany too.

 

But did the funds come from Spain or Catalonia?

 

Plus Ultra I missed that Spain is wanting to appeal this in Luxembourg, not Germany. I will say that the most I have seen anyone write that you can put someone in jail for, for the misappropriation of funds is 8 years so it is interesting that you suggest Spain is talking about almost double. Although obviously Germany has found that they do not have a charge equal to rebellion, I was interested that they had set the bail level at only £66,000 realising that they had left Puigdemont with a get out should he want it and obviously the misappropriation is a much lower level of crime than violent rebellion. I know that Spain believed that Germany would be the easiest place by its law to get him extradited from. I am assuming they also believed that Merkel would choose to overrule the Court's ruling in favour of Spain if necessary, whereas she of course acted as one should in a democracy and left that decision to the Independence of the German judiciary which is appropriate in a democracy for anything considered as you claim, criminal.

Likewise it is believed, though I admit sounds strange, that Spain was unaware that Scotland has a different legal system to England and that Spain thought May would organise it so that Clara Ponsati was sent back - well May was not given the option to prove her democratic credentials like Merkel as of course Clara will be tried in Scotland where Spain has the right to appeal directly to. Clara of course is a 61 year old Professor of economics at St Andrews University who was given a sabbatical when asked for her assistance re the referendum in Catalonia and spent 4 months there.

Frankly it is difficult to imagine a plane managing to take off taking this 61 year old very respected woman who has never been in trouble with the law in her life to die in a Spanish jail for her political aspirations.

 

Looks like some in Spain are throwing a tantrum at not getting what they want.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/943029/EU-latest-Spain-Puigdemont-Germany-freedom-of-movement

 

Puidement held an illegal referendum. it wasn't seen as legitimate by the Spanish government nor the bulk of Catalonian people who are seemingly anti independence.
He's an ******** trying to take over a country by force, and the Spanish government are too stupid and greedy to have offered a referendum that all people in Catalonia could consider free and fair and resolve the issue one way or another peacefully.

Germany appears to be rejecting Sobo's leadership currently and not handing him over for political crimes, although they may still extradite him to Spain on other charges.

 

Spain is not really seeking to appeal, Judge Llarena is asking the EU Court of Justice which has jurisdiction over criminal extradition requests to issue a determination making clear the limitations courts in the EU have when reviewing extradition. Ordinarily an extradition request is merely a matter of verifying the individual named is the person brought to the court and that the charge was brought by the recognized authority. In this case the German court apparently delved into the substance of the charges and this is allowed only to determine whether the charge exists under German law (it does). However, what the German court did was to examine whether rebellion and sedition are described under Spanish law exactly as they are under German law. The German court rejected Spain's extradition request because it found under German law sedition and rebellion require a higher level of violence than the facts show in Puigdemont's case.

It also should be noted Puigdemont has not been found innocent or in any way exonerated by the German court, which determined he could be extradited for misappropriation of funds, Puigdemont was released on bail (75,000 Euros), must remain within the German court's jurisdiction and report to the police once a week pending a final determination on whether the court erred in denying extradition for rebellion due it's determination there was an inadequate showing of violence for this charge under German law.

The German court's determination found "the conduct [Puigdemont] is accused of would not be a crime in Germany", this could reasonably be interpreted to mean any German Land Minister (the equivalent position to that Puigdemont held) could organize and hold a referendum for independence as long as he did not resort to violence. Wouldn't celebrating a referendum for the independence of some Land imply a violation of the constitution of Germany?

The narrow limitation of violence by the German court led it to hold Puigdemont responsible only for that which took place on the day of the referendum, to then argue there was no rebellion since whatever violence did not threaten constitutional order. Thus one is left wondering at what point do judges in Schleswig-Holstein figure the violence is enough to threaten constitutional order? How many dead or injured are required for a German to be arrested for rebellion? If there is no mutual understanding between German and Spanish judges over such essential issues, Germany's intervention in the Catalonian crisis may not be the perceived blessing.

 

I am aware of most of the points you take and my position is not changed. As for Referendum really all it required was for Spain to agree. If they really believed as they always say that most of the people of Catalonia do not want it it was a very stupid move to not allow it.

I remember hearing on another forum some years ago a German talking about one particular State in Germany which he thought would be the most likely to go for Independence so clearly Germany as it was then and presumably still now would not refuse it.

You may want to put this as a criminal trial but everyone knows it is a political trial. I know Finnish MP's have written to Spain asking them to give it up and I believe there was some problem also with Denmark arresting him and of course it did not work in Belgium so basically Spain's difficulty is with country's which believe strongly in Democracy - and as far as that reflects on the EAW, the EAW is not supposed to be used against political opposition.

Any brutality I saw was done by the Spanish Militarised Police. Spain can easily sort that out.

Had not the party now in power gone back on a deal made between the Spanish Government and Catalonia and decided on by a Referendum in Catalonia things would not have got to this situation. I am saying Spain caused it by going back on agreed deals. It is a situation created by Spain and one which she is going to need to sort out.

Germany appears to have acted well in this and having discovered that they would not find him guilty of the larger crimes they have released him on bail on the smaller one while that is sorted out. Personally I do not think you will see him back until all charges are dropped.

The people of Catalonia if Spain is really a democracy have the right to have their own political aspirations. Everything Spain has done against them seems to have just made them move further away from Spain. I think Spain needs to do some self reflection.

 

Two of them, it was Berlin he is staying in till the trial is over.

 

Clara next goes to court on the 12th.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/..._of_the_St_Andrews_professor_wanted_by_Spain/

This is like that insane law they have in Alabama where if you are part of a gang and the police shoot one of the gang, all other members of the gang are charged with his murder. I am sure psychologists would have something to say about this.

She has been speaking to the Herald about how she is feeling.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ing_as_I_prepare_to_take_on_Spain/?ref=twtrec

 

Evidently Alexa simply doesn't get it; the democratically expressed desire for independence of just some portion of a national population, even if they are a majority in that portion of the nation -is not grounds for the nation's dissolution. More simply put; territorial integrity supersedes democratically expressed secessionist desire.

The modern nation-state features shared specific attributes within defined borders, among those features is a uniform system of law which applies to the entire nation and commonly conforms to the nation's constitution. The term "nation" (which come from the Latin for "birth") applies to the people within certain defined boundaries, these people share a common history, cultural features, customs and ties to the land. In many modern nation-states there are ethno-cultural subgroups which gradually merged and these often compete for the nation's leadership, often in democratic systems this means the nation is ruled by the ethnic and cultural group of the largest size, and sometimes (as in Catalonia) this results in resentment over some favored group (in Spain Castillians) who are able to rule over diverse subgroups (Valencians, Galicians, Basques, Aragonese, Andalusians, Asturians and others).

Subsequent to Spain's integration as a nation-state (over five and a quarter centuries ago), there emerged the concept of a right to self-determination. This entirely artificial concept was applied by the UN in the 50s and 60s to facilitate the process of decolonization that enabled imperial powers which had subyugated diverse populations remotely governed to exploit their natural resources, to relinquish those territories which could claim a lack of self-government. Dozens of mostly African, some Asian a few Latin American and islands in the Pacific were granted independence and joined the UN.

More recently, ethnic subgroups in Europe like Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Hertzegovinia, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Slovakia and Czechia (among others) have successfully claimed independence due to their lack of self-government. In these instances their bid for independence is a bit more complicated as they certainly weren't as "remotely governed" as in the case with European imperial colonies, often they shares a common history, cultural features and ties to the land with those governing them and sometimes they could only show a subjective inadequacy of their role in their own government.

About forty years ago, Spain initiated a process of "devolution" to restore autonomous regional government. Gradually regional subgroups have been recognized and the national government has transferred authority to 17 different regions which have been allowed to self-govern within specific fields of assumed responsibility as they negotiated the transfer of authority and fiscal offsets to cover the provision of public service. Now Catalonia exercises a high degree of autonomy in a wide range of government responsibilities formely held by the national government. A detailed listing of Catalonian self-government fields is detailed here: http://web.gencat.cat/en/generalitat/estatut/estatut2006/titol_4/

For decades Catalonian secessionists in government have exploited their administration, particularly of education, cultural affairs and public administration, to promote the grievance Catalonia lacks adequate self-governance (which, if you checked the "Generalitat's" page above, you will recognize is without basis). Artur Mas (former Catalonian regional president) facing prosecution for corruption, rallied separatists to distract from his predicament, eventually he was convicted, but the secessionists persisted and (with thanks to the regional administration of public education, cultural affairs and public administration) we got Puigdemont. a committed separatist.

Now, a wholly concocted claim of inadequate self-government sustains the demand from less than half the Catalonians (according to an unverified and illegal referendum -unlawfully paid for with misappropriated Spanish taxpayer funds).

 

I see you talk about me not to me believing that what you say is the only possible argument. I have told you way back this is nothing about pretending there is Independence in Catalonia. It is about the desire of Spain to imprison for life the leaders of those with this aspiration.

Catalonia only became joined to Spain through a royal marriage. She is a distinct area with her own language and culture and for much of this time has had aspirations towards Independence. This was recognised when Spain became a Republic in 1931. However this did not last long. Much of your civil war was centred on Catalonia and of course she lost all her rights when Franco came in and

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/05/the-ghost-of-franco-still-haunts-catalonia/

Catalan regained her autonomy in 78 but according to the Catalonians they had been working all the time since Franco's death to get in place the rights they needed Of course we must remember that Franco died, there was no overthrowing of him and his system and I was reading recently that around a third of Spanish people still have some reverence for him, Indeed it is not unusual for them to pay homage at his grave as Catalonians were asking recently 'imagine how the world would see it if German's had built a shrine for Hitler and went there to revere him as some Spanish people do with Franco' his supporters being mainly I think in the PP party and if I am remembering correctly they are the people who have held the balance of power in Spain apart from after the Madrid bomb where their reaction to that resulted in people voting in the Socialist party. We hence cannot expect the PP party that is the party which is in power now to have much empathy for the people of Catalonia.

As I said they had been striving for the return of their rights and during this short interval when the socialist held power they found they had people willing to listen and make changes to meet the needs of the people of Catalonia. After much discussion the desired changes were put to a Referendum of the Catalonian people receiving a majority of 78%. This resulted in the 2006 Statute of Autonomy for Catalonia. However on getting back into power the PP party took it upon themselves to ignore the legal Referendum of the people of Catalonia and change this is a way which was not acceptable to the people of Catalonia. From that came the movement for Independence.

In countries which are not democracies people are forced to go along with the elite and crushed on when they did not as we can see happened to Catalonia in the 30's. You yourself said to me in a previous post the only way 'separation' is dealt with is by force which I think goes along with some of your other talk about the violence this will lead to. Not honouring the Statute which had the support of 78% of the people of Catalonia and was put into law by the socialists, in essential parts by the PP which has the remnants of Francoism was what gave rise to the movement for Independence The people of Catalonia are well aware of the violence they suffered before from that and they have remained peaceful throughout this period. When the people of Catalonia had their Referendum last year Spain could just have ignored it. Instead she sent in a militarised police to terrorise the people of Catalonia dragging them out of polling stations by the hair. But the people did not succumb. 'We are not afraid' they said. 'Declare us Independent'. Not being able to terrorise the people of Catalonia into submission Spain then went after their Leaders with the intent of putting them in jail for life. A democratic EU is not going to help you in this.

Oh and just a little ending. One of my parents is from Ireland. They got their Independence through fighting. The other is from Scotland. We did not need to fight in our now democratic country to have a vote on whether we wanted Independence or not. Your belief that people who in the past became part of a unioin but have a a different past and a distinct culture different from the main do not have the right of Independence and Self Determination comes from pre democracy history or in Spain from its Franco past. Spain needs to decide whether it is going to embrace democracy or not.

 

There is a persistant (though mistaken) impression Spain is full of fascists, nothing could be farther from the truth. After Franco's untimely passing Spain endured a very brief transitional government. King Juan Carlos assumed the role of head of state immediately and navigated the transition with great skill, swearing loyalty to Franco's Principles of the National Movement and assuming the crown before the Francoist legislature, it was only at his investiture speech before the Cortes that he indicated his support for a transformation of the Spanish political system. The king appointed Adolfo Suarez, a moderate social-democrat as prime-minister and Suarez successfully addressed the grievances of long repressed lefties and recalcitrant nationalists. Suarez, seeking the legitimacy only gained from a ballot box, called for a general election and prevailed in 1977. Suarez led a team which negotiated terms with conservatives and liberals for a new constitution. The success of Spain's democratic project required the leftist opposition restrain its more radical elements from provocation, and that the conservatives in the military refrain from intervening in the political process. At the first opportunity, in 1978, Spaniards overwhelmingly endorsed in a referendum which enjoyed a massive turnout, the country's new democratic constitution was ratified with 92% voting in favor (in Catalonia it was approved by over 95% of the population). This is the same constitution that requires the national government apply it's Article 155 to prevent any regional government's attempt to secede.

Spaniards voted in General Elections in March 1979 (renewing centrist Adolfo Suarez), in 1981 (after Spain joined NATO) and the king overcame a failed attempted coup, the socialist PSOE prevailed and Felipe Gonzalez was elected, and he renewed his government in the 1986 election. In the 1989 elections the socialists lost more votes and only managed to pass legislation since the opposition was divided. By 1991 corruption scandals mired the socialists and by 1993 they couldn't get anything done without Catalonian conservatives and this caused a lot of criticism. In the 1996 elections the current ruling party prevailed and Aznar replaced Gonzalez and ruled until 2004. In the 2004 elections the socialists prevailed with the support of fringe parties and Zapatero was elected and governed until 2011. In the 2011 elections Spaniards voted for Rajoy who has run the place since then. There have been ten general elections in Spain (plus the Constitutional Referendum) in the 43 years that have elapsed since Franco died, these have produced alternate socialist, moderate and conservative governments, it cannot be reasonably claimed Spain is full of fascists.