Do UFOs/ETs exist, are they real?

First off, the Orson Wells' radio broadcast was in the 30's and the so-called panic it reproduced was fairly localized and overblown by the fictionalized movies about it, so that would not apply today.

Secondly, the religious consideration was what was addressed in the Brookings Report which as stated before was drafted in 1960. I seriously doubt it would have as much impact today in a far more secular world.

On your third point; yes, anti-gravity technology would indeed be awesome and would certainly thrust civilization to the next phase, but we do not need to pin our hopes on UFOs. There's plenty of research going on right now to understand the nature of gravity itself in order to find a unified field theory that would finally merge general relativity with quantum mechanics. IF actual alien spacecraft have crashed, and the government did indeed have that technology to reverse engineer, then we would surely by now have that technology.

You see, there are two different things that get mixed in together to make up this UFO phenomena; the first is the actual observations and behaviors of these unidentifiable objects; and the second is the mythos of UFOs, which may use the evidence to support its findings, but it extrapolates that information to fit within the mythos. The phenomenon and the mythos are two separate things. It is the myth of UFOs that does not follow the scientific method. It makes assumptive leaps of faith that run counter to Occam's Razor.

I do not deny the US government has for decades been running secret projects to develop highly advanced stealth aircraft. We now know as a fact the triangle shaped aircraft that was seen throughout the western states during the 80s were the F-117 Nighthawk and the B-2 stealth bomber. And I am quite certain they may in fact still be experimenting with even more advanced features including vertical take-off and hovering with a low noise print, but jumping to the conclusion that this is a direct result of alien technology is an unfounded claim.

I'm also quite familiar with Bob Lazar's claims about Area 51, and yet I cannot draw any definitive conclusions without corroborating evidence. That does not mean I think Lazar is a liar, but I certainly do not know him as a person to be able to make that determination on faith alone.

You never did answer my question about why you want to search for this "truth".

You sound just like I did back in the 90s, but after awhile, I started to realize that except for a few brave souls, like Stan Friedman or the good folks at MUFON, most are either scheisters like Richard Hoagland, or fanatical UFO junkies akin to the same people who still believe Elvis is alive. If you accept the mythos as fact, you rob yourself of the critical analysis needed for true scientific research and appreciation.

I just simply want to warn you that taking too much of this stuff too seriously may be fun at first, or even awe inspiring if you actually witness a UFO, but it then becomes like falling down a rabbit hole. You question everything and start throwing out reason and mental discipline. On an individual level it can create undo psychological distress, on a societal level, it creates the very polarized environment we live in today.

I believe in time we will have the answers, but even then, there will always be those who will cling to their beliefs in spite of the evidence before them.

 

You'll have to be more specific, and I do not know about other universes, only the one we're in.

Math exists in the mind, but it affects the physical world.
Past and future exist in the mind, they do not exist in the real world.
The only thing that exists is NOW.

Prove me wrong, but that seems to be true.

 

What you are referring to is String Theory. It is being used to come up with a unified field theory that will merge relativity with quantum mechanics. It's all math way and above my head.

 

What I'm more involved with, is the alien abduction phenomenon.
I know what the objections are, but if you read both of Jacob's books, 'The Threat" and "Walking Among Us", I think he more than adequately
dispells the objections specifically the subject of confabulation. But, set aside his opinions of what the Alien Agenda is, just deal with the testimonies and draw your own conclusions.

I don't care about the social implications, I care about the reality of it. If aliens are creating human hybrids and establishing them on earth to the tune of a few million, and beyond, I should think this is an important development we should be concerned with.

Everything else is interesting, and a side show.
The 'sirius witness testimonies' are interesting, and there is quite number of them.

Also, the majestic document website seems to be legit.

 

It certainly was a serious concern in the late 40s and 50s, and there's another layer to this you are not considering, and it is this:
they've been in the cover up mode for decades, so all of the sudden, even though the reasons for suppression are not as significant today, you think they are going to come out and say to folks "sorry, we've been duping you people for a long time and we are coming clean"? I don't think so, I thinking what keeps it going is the fact they've invested so much into the cover up, there is no coming clean, ever.

What if the 'truth' goes something like this: Aliens seeded us, they created us, the human race is an alien project, they are the lab technicians and we are the lab rats, and if that were true, that would most certainly destroy Christianity. There is evidence of immaculate conceptions, aliens use females as gestational units to get alien hybrids to a certain fetal stage, they remove the fetus, and transplant them in thier alien incubatoriums until they are ready to be born. There are hundreds of testimonies by female abductees from all over the world telling the same story, and none of this was mentioned in books like Communion, there is no alien culture that even mentions this. If that is true, then the whole story of Christ, the story of the immaculate conception is entirely possible. Aliens have christ like abilities, the can do things that are magic to us, and it' entirely possible Christ was an alien plant, to create a 'religion' for the masses, in order that aliens could better control us in are primitive stages, and that the aliens do this on other planets, install similar christs on those planet's, and what is going on is routine for them. Sound fantastic? WTFK.?
My gut feeling is that the truth is along those lines and that is why they are not releasing the UFO data.

And how many years did it take for 'science' ( or society ) to catch up to galleleo?

Occam's razor is a double edged thing. I think it is important to keep an open mind.

 

More like an expansion of the many worlds theory.

 

And there is the rabbit hole....

Yeah, that would make a great TV show! Oh, wait....it's called the X-Files!

The weakest kind of evidence is eyewitness, and I've already laid out why I don't accept it. Even video evidence is questionable these days because anybody with the knowledge and right software can create some incredible images that looks real.

You're trying to put the cart before the horse. You just want to prove your beliefs, not find the truth from the evidence. You my friend are going down the rabbit hole.

 

I'm just speculating.

 

I simply keep an open mind to possibility that UFO's exist. I watch a lot of the "ancient alien" episodes on History Channel, and if nothing else, it's very entertaining to entertain the idea of their existence.

I've seen the Navy's UFO videos but haven't formed an opinion of them one way or another.

I had an uncle once who came home early from a drive to town, totally frightened from seeing bizarre lights moving around in the sky to the east. Later on, after doing some research on the matter, I discovered it was one of the more famous incidents of all. The Marshall County UFO incident of August 27th, 1979; the same time my uncle had been visiting us.

 

It doesn't show any direct identification of any craft. It says they can't come up with any definitive explanation so they've assumed it must be aliens.

This is all to do with the Roswell incident isn't it? That makes this just one tiny bit of the massive of information, claims and assertions about that. It certainly raises a whole load of questions but doesn't provide any actual answers. Loads of people from all sorts of backgrounds and with all sorts of intentions have send lifetimes investigating the incident and as far as I'm aware, no definitive conclusion has been established. That's remains a "We don't know" from my point of view.

 

Military men, if they are concerned about matters of reputation and credibility which they are, they NEVER assume things like 'aliens' or 'interplanetary blah blah' on a whim. If you see it written in a memo, you can assume it was discussed, studied, researched and agreed upon by consensus before it was committed to paper, even if that paper was classified.

As far as you are aware? That is the operative phrase.

The government is NEVER going to admit the existence of extraterrestrial beings or spacecraft, let alone 'conclude' anything of the sort, not to the public. I will discuss the reasons, at the bottom of this comment. Meanwhile, If such documents exist, they are always classified. The Eisenhower Briefing Document is classified, and the Majestic Documents website check with lawyers on the legality of publishing it, and the Majestic Documents Team asked lawyers three questions (well, here is the complete disclaimer)

If you want to find out if aliens exist or nor or are visiting earth or not, you will never find out if you are waiting for the government to hand you that information.

The Briefing document is pretty specific, it contains the following text:

On 07 July, 1947, a secret operation was begun to assure
recovery of the wreckage of this object for scientific study.
During the course of this operation, aerial reconnaissance
discovered that four small human-like beings had apparently
ejected from the craft at some point before it exploded.
These had fallen to earth about two miles east of the wreckage
site. All four were dead and badly decomposed due to action
by predators and exposure to the elements during the approx-
imately one week time period which had elapsed before their
discovery. A special scientific team took charge of removing
these bodies for study. (See Attachment "C".) The wreckage
of the craft was also removed to several different locations.
(See Attachment "B".) Civilian and military witnesses in
the area were debriefed, and news reporters were given the
effective cover story that the object had been a misguided
weather research balloon.

A covert analytical effort organized by Gen. Twining and
Dr. Bush acting on the direct orders of the President, res-
ulted in a preliminary consensus (19 September, 1947) that
the disco was most likely a short range reconnaissance craft.
This conclusion was based on for most part on the craft's
size and the apparent lack of any identifiable provisioning.
(See Attachment "D".) A similar analysis of the four dead
occupants was arranged by Dr. Bronk. It was the tentative
conclusion of this group (30 November, 1947) that although
these creatures are human-like in appearance, the biological
and evolutionary processes responsible for their development
has apparently been quite different from those observed or
postulated in homo-sapiens. Dr. Bronk's team has suggested
the term "Extra-terrestrial Biological Entities", or "EBEs"
be adopted as the standard term of reference for these
creatures until such time as a more definitive designation
can be agreed upon.
Since it is virtually certain that these craft do not origin-
ate in any country on earth....


Why is the government not going to release information it has in it's possession regarding the existence of extraterrestrial spacecraft and visitors?

The Roswell incident occurred just a few years after the Orson Well's radio broadcast of War Of The Words which led to massive public panic as those who tuned in after the beginning where Well's announced that it was a scripted play, and the manner and style of the show sounded like a live broadcast and it caused a nationwide panic. Well, the gov did not want a repeat of that so they covered it up. In retrospect, I cannot blame them. So, years later, with the panic concept less likely ( public used to aliens due to movies like Independence Day, Alien this, Alien that, etc., ) so why don't they just fess up?
1. Religion
2. They are keeping anti-gravity tech under wraps because it can be weaponized (so "national security" is the reason ).
3. The anti-gravity technology involves technology that would liberate citizens from energy dependence on energy companies, so there is a corporate/military chokehold on the information. The gov goes to extreme great lengths to suppress this information.


They do this with the following methods:
1. Outright intimidation and threats to citizens
2. NDAs to anyone working on, or near the evidence
3. Disinformation campaigns ( evidence provided on request) to fog the landscape, and make Ufologists seem incompetent, nutty, fringe, etc ( which is easy to do because it's prevalent in the community anyway, just watch a video of Laura Eisenhower to see what I mean.)

But, that may be changing, with the government releasing the three UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon ) navy videos of late. Perhaps they are testing the waters, to gage public reaction.

 

Interesting question. Heliocentrism became more and more accepted in the 18th C, so about 100-150 years.

shttps://io9.gizmodo.com/when-did-the-church-accept-that-the-earth-moves-around-1295437000

 

It is certainly my operative phrase. Your operative phrases is "I definitely know and if you disagree, even if you question my unconditional certainty, you're just ignorant."

I agree. You position is that we don't need that though because you already know. Your conclusion is inconsistent with your arguments. That is, and always has been, my only point in this discussion and you've pretty much acknowledged that there is no available evidence to suggest otherwise. I've no great interest in going around on selective, speculative or incomplete bits of information which by their very nature, don't address the point I'm actually trying to make.

 

I've not said any such thing. The party is just getting started.

One thing at a time, okay?

For starters, take the Eisenhower briefing document.

Do you honestly believe that a briefing document to the president of the United States, which is about an incident that occurred 5 years prior and was prepared by, signed off by an admiral, an Army Chief of staff, a secretary of the navy, a highly placed engineer/scientist, and a few others, do you honestly believe these high powered and high caliber men are going to make incredibly wild assumptions of alien spacecraft and extraterrestrial beings aboard it if they weren't certain about what it is that is being briefed?

Because that is what you seem to be suggesting.

Please tell me me it isn't so.

 

I quoted your operative phrase, but you assert mine is ""I definitely know and if you disagree, even if you question my unconditional certainty, you're just ignorant." but I went all they way back to the beginning of our exchange, I swear, either I'm blind or my memory is wack, I couldn't find it, so please, help me out, you seem to know when and where I wrote it, can you give me the comment number so I can look it up?

 

I couldn't find it where I said such a thing, I think you are confusing me with some other people.

 

What would government gain by using little green men to cleave asunder peoples' relationships with God? You'd have to ask George. I've never heard that question asked on his radio show, but as a former Navy man, he should know.

 

There is that saying: Take care that you replace whatever it is your taking down with something that actually is better than what you destroy.

We don't do that.

 

Let's back up a little, we can't build a house without a solid foundation, and the foundation MUST begin with the knowledge imparted by this Universtiy professor.

A TED talk, tailored for HonestJoe it's only 10 minutes and he is making a point, a very good point, very appropo here.



And before you kneejerk with "well, TED 'flagged the talk', read the following, from the same page

Just watch the video, please. Before we can budge one step farther, the point he makes must be understood.

 

Who is this "the government" we speak of when we talk of UFOs and aliens?

The American government? Do UFOs only happen in America?

The world is a big place, trust me on this. I sailed around the entire world on a ship, and, lemme tell ya, it was a long ass haul.

Are all the governments of the world competent enough and/or enthusiastically inclined to keep the aliens under wraps?

What if a UFO crashed all up in Djibouti? Would the Djiboutian government rush in, hide it, and keep it all hush hush?

Or is there some sort of worldwide globalist "government" that runs around and hides the UFOs no matter if they crash in Peoria or Peking or Boise or Bangladesh?

 

I've seen it before and I think his point is a classic example of the flaws in this field. The core basis of what he says is valid but he subtly pushes towards extraterrestrial aliens in spacecraft as the only explanation to consider for any UFO still unidentified, rather than addressing them as legitimately open questions.

It is true that if extra-terrestrials were proven to exist it would indeed be a massive event but then if some other as yet unknown phenomena or beings were discovered to account for any UFO sightings, that would be massive too. The fact remains is that there is nothing special or unique about "space aliens" as a hypothesis other than all the people determined to treat it as the only possibility or unquestionable truth.

There is no justification in him so sharply dividing those UFO sightings that have been definitively explained and those which haven't (yet). It's still the same phenomena. That said, it actually probably should be split on different grounds, based on the nature of the observed phenomena. I'm not convinced "UFOs" can all be studied in the same way since the term covers such a massive range of phenomena, circumstance and evidence.

He states an outright lie when he claims that anybody say UFOs don't exists (even with his unjustified differentiation between those which have now been identified and those which haven't). I challenge you to identify anyone who claims there are no UFO sightings that haven't been definitively explained. There has certainly been cover-ups of events which the authorities couldn't explain, but that's more because they didn't want to admit ignorance. It doesn't imply what he is trying to make it imply.

There is certainly resistance to scientific study in to UFOs, but much more that is because so many of the people who want to study them don't approach it as an open scientific question but only want to prove aliens exist. There are some things which can be or have been labelled as UFOs which have been scientifically studied, just not as UFOs, just as what they actually are (ball lightning, optical illusions, various celestial bodies or phenomena etc.).

One thing I did spot in this video in the past was around 2:15, when he is talking about UFOs not just being about aliens, trying to build on the idea that he isn't automatically pushing that
explanation. When he mentions "little green men" though, he adds as an aside "... though it turns out they're probably grey.". That sounds like a conclusion to me. Does he really want an open and honest study of UFO phenomena regardless of what the answer is or is he just working towards trying to convince people to accept his predetermined conclusion that some are the result of alien spacecraft (and specifically described ones at that)?

It's also notable that he highlighted the recently released Navy recordings and given we're on videos at the moment, did you see the in-depth videos someone linked in post #48?

So, I'm not entirely sure which of the points you're wanting to focus on. If it is that UFOs shouldn't be approached with any presumed connection with the idea of aliens, I'd totally agree because that's what I've been saying to you all along. If it is that study of UFOs has been tarnished that I'd also totally agree but I'd argue that the way both you and he approaches it, with aliens being the one and only hypothesis discussed or considered, is the primary cause of that problem.

 

In my opinion Stephen Greer M. D. is brilliant and has presented a powerful case that the USA may even possess what is thought of as UFO technology?????

Could this UFO have been Made in America?

 

I just ran into a pretty neat UFO story after the 1:56:00 mark in this video. Apparently ... some UFO's don't seem to enjoy the name of Jesus!????

 

All he wants is the following three items

1. Remove the taboo of UFOs in science,
2. If all possible explanations have been exhausted, not to take UFO/ETs off the table.
3. Fund and put into motion a scientific expedition to study it.

Note that the navy used to ignore UFO reports, now they REQUIRE pilots ot report them, this is a sea change in attitude, a good thing.

He isn't 'subtly' pushing anything, you are conflating the idea of considering it's possibility as 'subtly pushing', which is nonsense.

That doesn't change the above point I just made

Yes, there are nutjobs in the field, so what? that doesn't mean responsible people shouldn't act responsibly.

Not at all, it's a deference ot the simple fact that there has been volumes of testimony of witnesses to ETs that describe them as grey, not green.

That's all it is, and that deference is reasonable given the above fact, that the old adage should be updated. You're reading way more into it than need be

That's all he wants, which 1, 2, and 3, above

Each one of those videos is an edited version by someone who is obviously reading something into the videos which the originals did not make.
The narrator's tone is nauseating, I couldn't watch it.

Find the originals, and watch them, that is my recommendation. No one is saying the Navy UAP released videos, no one is saying the Navy's UAP's are 'ETS' necessarily, but until they can figure it out with certainty, not to take it off the table.

But consider that when you have a craft that has no wings, no visible means of thrust, no exhaust plumes, no nacelles, no visible means of navigation, no windows, no nothing but an oval object flying through space, which have been recorded on radar at mach 5 and beyond, which has been observed to turm at right angles at G forces that would crush humans, to have descended to hover above and below sea level, then to shoot straight up a lightning speeds, where does that leave us?

You tell me. We have testimony by radar, military, people of high rank, etc., watch the film 'Sirius Disclosure' ( and ignore all of Dr. Greer's rants, just listen to the testimonies ).

You tell me where that leaves us.

This is an excerpt from the Eisenhower Briefing Document, presented by Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoeter for a commission dedicated to the task which consists of high ranking military, political, and scientific personnel, ( as named in the document, on November 18, 1952) and the document is about the Roswell incident which occurred years earlier. During these years, they've had plenty of time to assess what it was they were looking at, noting that men of his caliber do NOT make wild assumptions let alone commit them to print in briefing documents to presidents.

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/pdf/eisenhower_briefing.pdf

On 07 July, 1947, a secret operation was begun to assure
recovery of the wreckage of this object for scientific study.
During the course of this operation, aerial reconnaissance
discovered that four small human-like beings had apparently
ejected from the craft at some point before it exploded.
These had fallen to earth about two miles east of the wreckage
site. All four were dead and badly decomposed due to action
by predators and exposure to the elements during the approx-
imately one week time peiod which had elapsed before their
discovery. A special scientific team took charge of removing
these bodies for study. (See Attachment "C".) The wreckage
of the craft was also removed to several different locations.
(See Attachment "B".) Civilian and military witnesses in
the area were debrifed, and news reporters were given the
effective cover story that the object had been a misguided
weather research balloon.
A covert analytical effort organized by Gen. Twining and
Dr. Bush acting on the direct orders of the President, res-
ulted in a preliinary conscensus (19 September, 1947) that
the disco was most likely a short range reconnaissance craft.
This conclusion was based on for most part on the craft's
size and the apparent lack of any identifiable provisioning.
(See Attachment "D".) Asimilar analysis of the four dead
occupants was arranged by Dr. Bronk. It was the tentative
conclsuion of this group (30 November, 1947) that although
these creatures are human-like in appearance, the biological
and evolutionary processes responsible for their development
has apparently been quite different from those observed or
postulated in homo-sapiens. Dr. Bronk's team has suggested
the term "Extra-terrestrial Biological Entities", or "EBEs"
be adotpedas the standard term of reference for these
creature until such time as a more definitive designation
can be agreed upon.
Since it is virtually certain that these craft do not origin-
ate in any country on earth...



Those are the words of Admiral Hillenkoeter.

And I'm just getting started. So, the question is, do you want me to give you more, ( not stupid ****, good stuff ), or are you so **** sure there are no ETs visiting earth that you would rather close your mind?

You tell me.

 

Here is what a near death experiencer was shown on this topic:

http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/