English spies and their Yulia Scripal' :)

Well your sources are funded by Russia.... puts us squarely on opposite sides of the propaganda machine and the truth... (my side being the truth)

SH that's a lovely story (about love lost and self worth found) but I really don't care, I will wait for what the investigation find and will believe what Britain release over a nice warm story about a blogger any day.

 

The BBC, the mouthpiece of what's laughingly called the 'government', has launched a hyped-up counter-attack to the 'Craig Murray' theorising in this morning's news schedule. But of all the reportage of the 'poisoning' incident (this morning's or hitherto), I have never seen, read, nor heard a word about the letter that Dr. Stephen Davies, who is the Consultant of the A&E Department at Salisbury Hospital, wrote to the London Times. Now, if all that isn't 'news management' I don't know what is??

 

If it was Novichok? But it sounds Russian, which is obviously all that mattered. The following passage is part of the opening narration of Bitter Lake:

"Reagan, simplified the world into a series of reassuring moral fables. Complex conflicts that previously would have been seen as political struggles became instead battles against dark, demonic forces – that threatened innocent people."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11364811/bitter-lake.html

So 'which side is lying'? I'll go with 'the West'.

 

Stop with the juvenile flamebaiting or I'll make an official complaint.

 

What’s the administration route that the time estimate is based on? I would imagine an aerosol. That seems unlikely in this case.

In any case, it sounds like the doorknob is not the most likely source.

 

Let's hope he gets it?

 

I thought you were ignoring me. Guess not. Whatever.

 

Well if you thought that then it was a bit stupid to post to me wasn't it?

 

So what? They are not world renowned nerve agent specialists that Porton Down are.

On Aitkenhead, read the article again. He is not speaking personally but as the representative of Porton Down - i.e., on behalf of that institution and its scientists.

There is no antidote. The argument there may be one is a myth. If there were one, Porton Down would have administered it. But they're on the record stating publicly and unequivocally there is no known antidote.

Repeat: "no known antidote". It couldn't be clearer.

Uglev is speaking from scientific knowledge of having developed Novichok when he states there is no antidote. His view about the veracity of the event itself is completely irrelevant. In the last analysis he's a scientist -- not a spook or a investigative journalist.

I well understand your thought process here. Three people survived and recovered intact from an alleged attack of the deadliest nerve agent in the world (of high purity). So it becomes an imperative to try to present excuses and arguments to prop up the government's ever crumbling narrative.

I don't intend to respond to this point again.

 

But the chemist Zheleznyakov was exposed to Novichok on accident in 1987. He was treated with atropene and other antidotes, and lived for about five years.

 

It stinks to high heaven! I'm not saying that there wasn't some kind of contrived 'attack' on them - and who knows for what purpose? Nor even if there was a quid pro quo - this is 'spooks' territory we're talking about here? - but it sure wasn't Russia that carried it out because there is/was no logical reason whatsoever for them to do it at all, never mind on our shores when he was so shortly about to be repatriated. Too many red herrings in the mix to my way of thinking, and trust this useless effing government to screw it up! And still nothing in the MSM about the Salisbury hospital's A&E Consultant's letter to the Times. Blimey, wouldn't there be some red faces if it did come out??

 

If in doubt... use slurs focusing on the Russian meme.

The last thing Parry was funded by was Russia - his Consortium News survives by fundraising. Ditto Craig Murray who runs his blog from donations and has some harsh things to say about Russia.

What puts us on opposing sides is your penchant for accepting at face value establishment narratives while automatically rejecting independent reporting. As I said yesterday, we come at these matters from different directions. I begin with a cynical mindset; you with an uncritical accepting one.

And yet you're the one who believes the discredited blogger and ladies underwear fancier, Bellingcat. You really are a strange one Witchy.

Meanwhile, revisit what I said in the above para about accepting uncritically at face value establishment narratives.

 

The official narrative is that the nerve agent was in a jellified form and was smeared on the doorknob.

And I agree. It is a highly unlikely scenario for numerous reasons. Not least is that anything could have happened and success inhibited. The postman could've contacted the agent when delivering the post before they left the building; Yulia Skripal alone might've closed the door - not both of them. The possible permutations are numerous.

My assessment is that the narrative has been modified on the hoof every time an inconvenient fact became public, and this has led to an ever growing number of incongruities.

 

You maybe interested in today's report by the hospital staff that cared for Sergei and Yulia Skripal
Hospital staff who saved the lives of poisoned Russians Sergei and Yulia Skripal have revealed they did not expect the victims of the nerve agent attack to survive.
The Skripals had been found slumped on a bench on 4 March - but staff treating them at Salisbury District Hospital did not initially know the reason why.
Nursing director Lorna Wilkinson said a key moment came when policeman Nick Bailey was admitted with similar symptoms. "There was a real concern as to how big this could get," she said.
She told BBC Two's Newsnight: "Have we just gone from having two index patients having something that actually could become all-consuming and involve many casualties? Because we really didn't know at that point."
And ward sister Sarah Clark, who was on duty that night, added that there were fears that the hospital's staff might end up being affected.
She pointed out that they had not, at that stage, "taken any extra precautions in terms of protecting ourselves".
When the nature of what they were facing became clear, hospital staff said they did not have high hopes of ever seeing their two patients recover.
But after weeks of treatment - involving expert advice from the nearby Porton Down research facility - Yulia and then Sergei were eventually discharged to continue their recovery at an undisclosed address.
The series of interviews with Newsnight marks the first time that staff at the hospital have spoken in detail about the event and how they reacted.
The testimonies of the medical staff highlight the vital importance of the decisions made at key times: the speedy arrival in intensive care, the heavy sedation used to limit possible brain damage, and the importance of advice, tests and treatments suggested by the Porton Down experts.
When the Skripals were found, an opioid overdose was suspected.
"We were just told that there were two patients down in the emergency department who were critically unwell and they would be coming up to the unit," recalled ward sister Ms Clark.
But when police became aware of Mr Skripal's former career as a Russian spy, they told the hospital and discussed the possibility that he may have been the victim of a targeted attack.
A major incident was declared at the hospital and police moved in to protect the Skripals.
"I spoke to the nurse in charge," recalled Dr Duncan Murray, the hospital's senior intensive care consultant, "and it was this conversation I really could never have imagined in my wildest imagination as having with anyone...
As they continued the treatment, medical staff discarded the earlier theory about opioid poisoning, realising that what they were seeing were symptoms typical of organophosphate, or nerve agent, poisoning.
Dr Stephen Jukes, an intensive care consultant at the hospital, said: "When we first were aware this was a nerve agent, we were expecting them not to survive.
"We would try all our therapies. We would ensure the best clinical care. But all the evidence was there that they would not survive."
Both Skripals were heavily sedated which allowed them to tolerate the intrusive medical equipment they were connected to, but also helped to protect them from brain damage, a possible consequence of nerve agent poisoning.
Over time, the sedation was reduced and the ventilation switched from the mouth to the trachea, as shown by the vivid scar seen on Yulia Skripal's neck in the TV statement she gave after she was released.
Once the patients became more conscious, staff had to carefully consider what they could tell them without prejudicing the police investigation, and decide on the right moment to allow questioning by detectives.
Medical director Dr Christine Blanshard explained: "Those are very difficult decisions, because on the one hand you want to provide reassurance to the patients that they are safe and they are being looked after, and on the other hand you don't want to give them information that might cause difficulties with subsequent police interviews."
It was the doctors and nurses that, out of concern for their patients, insisted that international inspectors obtain a court order before they would be allowed to take blood samples from the Skripals.
Dr Jukes explained: "These are vulnerable patients, they needed some form of advocate and without a court order we could not allow things to happen to them without their consent."

 

SH - FYI I just went to Craig Murray's site with the intention of making a donation now and again, but I don't want to make an online arrangement for a standing order, because I'm neurotic about putting my bank details on the internet.

 

Probably because at the time they were under the impression they were dealing with Novichok? Of course they would think that, were it the actualite.

 

It's said to be very fast acting... death within minutes and is up to 8 times more deadly than VX.

Given that Theresa May said it was "military grade" and it has also been reported to have been of "high purity" then death probably would occur sooner rather than later. And there is no known antidote.

But the real pointer is the 3.5 hours delay between allegedly contracting the agent from the doorknob to collapse in the park - during which both of the Skripal's spent time in a pub and then had a meal in a restaurant.

 

Ditto Cerb. I would send a one off donation only but not a monthly one (for the same reasons).

 

The Soviet era "inventor" of Novichok that Striped Horse talks about how some splashed on his hands in a lab and he is still alive.

 

He's a CEO who has been there less than a year. He previously ran a tech company.

Everyone with a science background says that it was Novichok. Your CEO says it was Novichok.

It was Novichok.

 

You have no idea of hospital treatment on admissions of seriously ill patients. Don’t you even read what’s posted before you gallop to the keyboard?
How on earth were they expected to know they were dealing with a nerve agent,
is it a day to day occurrence in America?

 

Yes, from what I have read it is supposed to be a fast kill agent. And given the time frame, well, something stinks here and there is an incoherence involved. I don't like incoherence. For that makes me suspicious. Am I am idiot for this? ha ha

You know, we live in times where the people who are only interested in the truth are at great odds with the world that we live in. If some people do not want people to know the truth, they certainly now have the means to muddy up the waters in order that truth is very hard to see. It takes hard work on part of the seeker and there is no guarantee, given there are forces that want to insure no one ever knows the truth. I think this is a most basic truth today, what I just spoke of. And yet there are plenty of people who cannot for whatever reason even see that truth...that we live in a world of lies, deceit, disinformation, propaganda, committed by people in great power who have the ability to spread this sh*t using our media.

And given this fact, we have so many people in power who are evil, nefarious bastards who cannot tolerate much truth at all. And that does seem to be our reality. I don't know how anyone could think otherwise, if they only pay attention to how this reality is playing out. All gov'ts lie to their own citizens. Intel like the CIA is are well documented liars. So a rational being would never just accept what they tell us. And yet, so many of us never question what they tell us. And I don't care what drives that, it is just a damned fact. And I find that untenable.

 

And that courageous decision by Salisbury Hospital staff and also the decision of Justice Williams to publish his findings (which were held in private at the government's pleading), put a real cat amongst the pigeons for BoJO and Theresa May.

The key words in the judgement are those on page 10 of the Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst (unnamed), who testified as follows:

The words "or closely related agent" means that Porton Down were unable to positively identify the compound as Novichok, let alone its origin. Thus the Russians did it story is baseless as Craig Murray made clear in his article HERE.

This was a significant story at the time but now we know that many nations, Including several NATO members synthesised Novichok in the 1990's thanks to the German BND who obtained samples from a Russian scientist. Nations that later synthesised Novichok include the US and Britain's Porton Down.

 

Another note about Zheleznyakov. In the last 5 years of his life, he was brain damaged. If we’re going to nitpick at Yulia’s behavior or speech, this is something to bear in mind.

 

Yes reagan did do that and we continue to do it. But with that said, any gov't that would murder a hundred million of its own people? Yes sir, evil and dark forces at work there. We still have to be able to discern evil, no matter where it happens. I think you would agree with that? Of course the problem is, sometimes that blanket is used on another nation, when the nation tossing that blanket is hardly any less evil. Reality is very complex, much of it, but some of it is really simple. Knowing the difference is where intelligence is needed, incorporating rationality, logic, reason, but with a moral center.