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Finding and Fixing the root causes of Mass Shootings

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Lee S, Aug 5, 2019.

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  1. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    As a prelude to opening a serious discussion on the subject of mass shootings, I do not want this thread to be about scoring political points. If that is somehting you feel you must do, then there are other threads for you to do that. I would also lappreciate it if you do not make this thread about gun control. We are looking for discussions about the root causes of mass shootings.

    I think if one is actually looking to solve the problem of mass shootings, one should stop trying to treat the symptoms and instead make an effort to treat the disease. I am not sure there have been enough mass shootings already for America to start looking at root causes. Using mass shootings for political advantage is just too tempting right now so I think there is going to have to be more carnage before anything gets done.

    I think it is important to look at all the facts and try to find links which tie most of the shootings together and present a clearer picture of the problem. Some of these facts to consider are:

    Most shooters are males.
    Most all shooters are between the ages of 15 and 25 years old.
    Most all shooters did not have a father figure in the home.
    Most shooters could have killed more victims but they almost always made sure they had enough ammunition left so they could kill themselves.
    Mass killings that did not involve firearms (such as trucks, fertilizer bombs, knives, swords, arson, and other weapons) were just as deadly and followed a pattern identical to shootings using firearms.
    The shooters had no expectations of surviving.
    The shooters were more often than not lonely, disaffected, unsuccessful, had little prospects or hopes of ever succeeding and were unattached to society.
    There are so many weapons available in the United States that no one could ever close Pandora's Box so it would appear that fixing the problem would require other solutions.

    I think it is fairly safe to say that firearms are not the root cause of the problem. The true cause of the problem is post-adolescent self-alienated males who really do not see the point of continued existence. Unsocialized young males are by far the most dangerous weapons in the World. If we recognoize that fact, then we can do something about the problem.

    I think the questions we ought to be asking ourselves are:

    Why has there been an uptick in mass shootings?
    Why are young males so alienated from society in the first place?
    What has changed in the last 30 years (starting at the point where mass shootings have become much more common and subtracting the median age of the shooters) that can be attributed to mass shootings?
    Finally, what are steps that can be done to correct the problems?

    Some facts that absolutely need to be considered in order to answer the above questions:

    More boys are being raised by bitter men hating moms.
    Rising divorce rates increase the likelihood that fathers will not be present in the lives of boys.
    Boys receive much more negative attention in school than girls by a huge margin.
    The number of male teachers in primary education is dwindling and the #metoo movement is exacerbating that problem.
    Fewer males are entering the teaching ranks for fear of false sexual harassment and assault allegations.
    As male influence diminishes in the daily lives of boys, the likelihood of acts of violence increases.
    Boys, as a whole, have higher probabilities of having problems in school such as truancy, expulsion, failure to achieve academic success, fighting, drug use, and failure to complete a high school education.

    So please give yourself time to pause and reflect and provide insights and solutions to the problem of mass shootings and thank you for following the parameters of this thread.
     
    Lee S, Aug 5, 2019
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  2. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    I worked documenting crime scenes for a number of years. Many of those were domestic violence cases. Believe me, having an abusive father in the house is more dangerous than any other single contributor to violent child behavior. Male influence from the wrong male is more dangerous than getting that male out of the picture.
     
    Daniel Light, Aug 5, 2019
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  3. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    As a person who was socialized as a guy, it sucks being one. The first time anyone had ever told me (When I was presenting as a male) that I could be beautiful was my senior year of high school. Thankfully I transitioned in the meantime so I have a very different perspective now. It might have sucked being a guy. But it sucks a lot worse being a woman. I can safely say that for a fact. I never would have gotten the sexual harassment I got if I was a man. Now as a trans woman it's even worse. Every time I went to work I had to worry if my boss would find and out fire me. Can you imagine living with that stress?

    Now to get to the OP. The OP is right. Most of these mass shooters in the US have similar traits. Middle class, white, right wing, lone wolves. My theory is that it has something to do with affect. Basically it's the subjective experiences we have when have stimulus. Imagine watching the news as a person is getting breakfast.The newscaster, the toast you're eating, the smell of coffee, the warm sunlight. How that information is processed and organized is affect. Affect can draw up on past experiences to help figure out that this is safe and secure to eat. It's alright to be here. Now imagine affect couldn't match reality. There's a change and a person needs to respond to it. Affect can't explain why reality is that way. The person has to learn and adapt to a changing reality. How a person learns to adapt to reality and use previous affect (IE memories) to interact with their new reality determines how well they will do.

    So if reality is different than what is perceived, how can a person know how dangerous it is? The change might be good, but it might be bad as well. What would it take for a person to think that the new affect marks danger and they have to do something about it? Violence makes sense. It's a response to a reality that doesn't make sense. Now this might explain terrorists more than it does a mass shooter, but I think the same can apply with some changes. I would have to focus on the need to make sense of reality includes the need for violence.
     
    Kranes56, Aug 5, 2019
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  4. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I really appreciate you starting this thread. Thank you for taking the time, and for the thought you put into it. I'll give it some thought and post later. Again, thank you.
     
    roorooroo, Aug 5, 2019
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  5. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can you provide some data on the "right wing" part please? Or is that your perception?

    Also, and to the OP, how are we defining "mass shooting" so we know what data to collect?
     
    roorooroo, Aug 5, 2019
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  6. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One request as per above... what is the definition of a mass shooting? It matters because otherwise how do we collect legitimate data instead of cherry-picking?
     
    roorooroo, Aug 5, 2019
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  7. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Dayton shooter was left wing nut and Texas shooter was right wing nut. There is no common root cause foe any of these. The Florida night club shooter hated gays. The baseball game shooter hated republicans. There is always a different root cause.
    You stop mass shooters with Guns. It's the only solution that works. Ot would be nice to prevent them but how do you do that with so many different root causes?
     
    Darthcervantes, Aug 5, 2019
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  8. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    That's actually been the trend for like the last couple of years.

    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch...hirds-us-terrorism-tied-right-wing-extremists
    https://icct.nl/wp-content/uploads/...errorism-from-the-Far-Right-February-2019.pdf

    Heck this is from 2002:
    "During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country"
    https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/testimony/the-terrorist-threat-confronting-the-united-states
     
    Kranes56, Aug 5, 2019
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  9. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    First rule of setting up explanations. See the differences, find what they all had in common. Lots of different plants exist, but lots of them have roots too. So why don't we find what roots there are?
     
    Kranes56, Aug 5, 2019
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  10. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Same root cause different victims. The root is hate the target of that hate may change but hate is still the cause. Regardless of the victims targeted.
     
    garyd, Aug 5, 2019
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  11. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    How many of the mass shooters are domestic violence victims? You are talking about a different problem.

    I pretty much agree with the OP. Most of the mass shooters seem to be lost young men without good father figures. That's not saying that bad father figures would be a good thing either. I think our society is no longer producing whole adult males as a whole. Boys succeed better at becoming men if they have good father figures. That doesn't mean actual fathers, but some kind of positive adult male relationship. It can be an uncle, a stepfather, a grandfather, an older brother, a neighbor, a coach, a teacher, a scout leader, etc.
     
    perdidochas, Aug 5, 2019
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  12. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    You make a good point. The definition is extremely important so we can narrow the parameters of discussion. The accepted definition is a shooting of four or more people but I would like to clarify a definition for our discussion to four or more non-family members. There seems to be a different dynamic when family is involved and looking at family disputes would dilute the argument for this discussion.
     
    Lee S, Aug 5, 2019
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  13. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    The Las Vegas killer was a relatively affluent older gent who was a professional gambler and real estate owner, and as far as I can read they still have not discovered what motivated him to slaughter 59 total strangers.
     
    61falcon, Aug 5, 2019
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  14. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's not surprising it is young males since in every society young males are always the problem. In many societies in the past it was always a good idea to get the young males married off because it kept them busy with a family and other worries. In today's world where the family is fractured and government encourages fractured families with bad policy, where men are not even sure they are men anymore, you can expect other breakdowns.
     
    Hoosier8, Aug 5, 2019
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  15. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    His father was a convicted criminal that spent a lot of time in jail.
     
    Hoosier8, Aug 5, 2019
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  16. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    You make a great point about the wrong male influence and of course, nobody should ever discount this point of view. I am in complete agreement with you. With that being said, after looking at the family history of mass shooters, there isn't an abusive dad in the picture. Dad is completely gone, either by locale or complete emotional detachment. I think it is important to understand that step fathers are a whole lot more likely to be physically and sexually abusive than biological fathers. Of course there are exceptions to the rule.

    As a side note, I have done some forensic surveying of crime scenes and from that limited experience, I must admit that I have a great deal of admiration to people who investigate crime scenes, day in, and day out for years. That is one hell of a job in terms of stress and creating cynicism and most of it goes unnoticed by the public.
     
    Lee S, Aug 5, 2019
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  17. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    That is one of the points I am trying to get at. The dad was gone from the childs life. This also brings up something that seems to be prevelant in mass shooters. There seems to be quite a lot of criticism of the father by the mother which leads to self-alienation of the boy who identifies with the father. Since self-alienation is a very strong tenant of mass shooters, this issue needs to be explored.
     
    Lee S, Aug 5, 2019
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  18. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    To stop mass shootings at the root, we need to find one element in common.

    Motive is not a common element. Because motives vary. Today the most prevalent cause is racism. Not to bring in politics, but we do have to acknowledge that rhetoric at the top definitely fuels this. Other causes are Islamic terrorism. workplace and domestic violence, and others. Racism is one big cause, and the number of killings for this cause could be reduced enormously (even though not altogether eliminated) by this President on his own. But to address motive, the most important element is Education. About respect for fellow human beings. About how the apparent physical differences are not really differences at all. But these things are most effective at childhood. So it's not going to have that much effect in the short term. And this, of course, does not help in the cases where the shooter is just a lunatic who decided to take his personal problems onto others. So addressing the motive is necessary, but it's not going to solve the problem as a whole.

    But there is one element that is common to all mass shootings. All shooters have a gun!

    Now, we shouldn't think in terms of stopping all shootings. Not because it's not desirable, but because it's just not possible in the short term. We can't remove all guns (SCOTUS will not allow that). What we can do is reduce the number of shootings. And when there is a shooting, reduce the number of victims.

    I once posted a list of proposals

    -Ban the sale of "assault weapons" (or "military-style weapons" or "rapid kill weapons".... however you want to call them)
    -Ban so-called "cop-killing" bullets
    -Ban the sale of high-capacity magazines
    -Bump-stock ban.
    -Implement a federal gun license requirement to purchase guns, which requires background check, proficiency, minimum 21 years, and other limitations to obtain.
    -Give courts the authority to confiscate guns from people who they consider a threat to themselves and others. (Red Flag Law)
    -Raise the age limit for buying any kind of guns to 21 (at least)
    -Implement strong nationwide cash-for-guns programs focusing primarily on assault weapons.
     
    Golem, Aug 5, 2019
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  19. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    Please try to keep things apolitical. We are looking to fix problems and not fix the blame. I don't believe there is no commonality between the shooters. The shooters all have similar upbringing and self-alienation. I truly believe there are things which can be done to eliminate mass shootings before guns are involved. Wouldn't we better off if we could fix the problem before the bodies hit the ground?
     
    Lee S, Aug 5, 2019
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  20. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course that would be better..but how?
     
    Darthcervantes, Aug 5, 2019
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  21. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry for the questions...

    Is that four people shot, or four people dead?

    And do we need to limit this to mass killings involving guns, or should we include other types of weapons? As an example, the incident in Charlottesville involved a car being driven into a crowd. Only one died, but over 20 were injured. Should this be included? How about the Boston Marathon incident?

    Again, just trying to get the scope of the discussion. Thanks!
     
    roorooroo, Aug 5, 2019
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  22. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    Great question. If I knew the answer, I would do it, but let us explore some things which might help:

    Make age six the minimum age for boys to enter school. Girls can still enter school at age 5. (if this doesn't seem like an obviously good idea, I can explain it later.)
    Create all boy schools which have at least half of all faculty members male.
    Make sure that mothers do not automatically gain custody of the children in divorce court. Hold judges liable for making the mothe the default careholder.
    Take into consideration the mental health of the mother's boyfriend in custody battles.
    Do not allow mothers to move out of state or in large states, more than 50 miles away from the father in custody proceedings, for the welfare of the children.
    Provide better monitoring of primary school classrooms to ensure that the 'good girl vs. bad boy' dynamic isn't normalized on a daily basis.
    Allow the open criticism of the non-custodial parent as legal grounds for a change in custody.
    Make efforts to increase the numbers of male primary school instructors.
    Make efforts to shield male instructors from the devastating consequences of false allegations of sexual misconduct. (If they are actually misbahing, then let them fry.)
    Stop the zero sum gain mentallity of believing if some efforts are made to help boys, it will mean that girls will be harmed.
    Understand those specific things which lead to boys self-alienation.

    I am not saying any of these ideas should be adopted, I am advocating that we at least explore some alternative thinking because we know the status quo is failing miserably.
     
    Lee S, Aug 5, 2019
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  23. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lee,

    Great post!

    Will answer later.
     
    Seth Bullock, Aug 5, 2019
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  24. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Banned

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    How do you know they lack "father figures"? Dad's not there. That doesn't mean there aren't other men they can look up to. Nor does it mean that they need to have a man to look up to. It feels like this is running on some assumption I don't get. Can someone enlighten me?
     
    Kranes56, Aug 5, 2019
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  25. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    No problem, getting the scope of discussion down is important. I think four persons injured is a good enough definition. I don't think the discussion should be limited to guns. If self-alienation is one of the roort causes, then cars, boats, sacks of fertilizer, pressure cookers or any other object will simply take the place of firearms.

    Great questions!
     
    Lee S, Aug 5, 2019
    #25
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