"First Israeli killed by Gaza rocket fire..."

Palestinians?

 

Fair enough, I'm not claiming to have all the answers. That is how i see it.

I've heard many people excuse the violence/rockets from Gaza and blame it on the blockade. The blockade exists because of violence that occurred from Gaza. This is my point.

I'm not saying it's the whole reason for the conflict over there, just saying this is a factor.

Care to educate me?

 

Just trying to survive is not what's going on and never has been.

The left condemns all violence. The right supports Israeli bombing and cheers dead kids on the beach.

 

So what you are implying is that the palestinian government, for what it is worth, has no control over the criminal behaviour of the armed militant groups that pervade its society.

Firing rockets isn't a strategy? The idea that 1200 rockets is merely a natural reaction is ridiculous. If the Palestinian government cannot control its militant factions, then how in the hell can they negotiate any kind of peace agreement? Why would the Israelis believe for a second that a palestinian government could honor the pre-requisite security guarantees that any agreement would be predicated on?

that is pretty damn easy to understand.

 

Yes indeed. So since Hamas historicaly make attack on both types of target what is your point?

 

Fair enough. Hamas and Gaza was blockaded and bombed immediately upon withdrawal. A family was wiped out in the beach the day after withdrawal.

Hamas have already offered a thirty year truce and held a Ceasefire which lasted until isreal broke it.

Then followed a devastating invasion.

- - - Updated - - -

That holds for Israel too. Whose top brass has scuppered peace.

 

Um no. Illan pappe is a credible author whose work comes from Israeli sources.

 

In all, 268 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the fighting began on July 8, and it has also destroyed hundreds of homes. There have been two Israeli fatalities - a soldier and a civilian, who was killed by a rocket.

Israel last mounted a large-scale invasion of the Gaza Strip during a three-week war in late 2008 and early 2009 that claimed 1,400 Palestinian and 13 Israeli lives.

Israel, obviously, can be suckered by Hamas into slaughtering Palestinians.

No one can honestly pretend that it has ever been, nor will ever be, an effective response to terrorist rocketry, nor will decent people anywhere ever approve of it.

It is past time that both sides confronted reality and made the courageous decisions necessary. There are no legitimate excuses for perpetuating the status quo by interminably whining that it's all the "other's" fault.

 

Then why are his facts as I detailed above so wrong?

 

Half of those killed in Cast Lead were Hamas giving Israel the lowest collateral damage ration in the history of urban warfare. This is the best response a available when an enemy who has declared war on you refuses to stop carrying out terrorist attacks on your civilians.

 

From the article it appears that most of what he writes is correct. And rather informative, in context analysis. Ill give you that the term 'incremental genocide' is bit strong.

Ive read his prior on the the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and find it peerless.

if you wish to to discuss what is correct and incorrect from the article Im sure we'd be happy to.

 

Would Israel be at more or less risk if they returned all the occupied territories?

 

The situation would certainly be much better if they did this. However, returning the occupied territories would not be the only thing required for prosperity to be possible within Palestine. For example, Gaza was technically returned to Palestinian governance, but it still is totally restricted as a result of the Israeli blockade. And if you may be thinking they are only blocking weapons to enter the Gaza Strip, this is incorrect as the food and water supply for the Gaza citizens has suffered, as well as many other things. So lets stop painting Israel as not being able to do anything to improve the situation. Occupation breeds resistance, fact.

 

Did you derive your figures from a neutral source? Both sides pump out self-serving propaganda, and ultra-partisans of one side or the other swallow it whole.

Killing Palestinians in comparatively large numbers does not discourage Hamas missile launches, and pretending that habitual response is effective is patently absurd.

 

True. Palestinians, allowed economic freedom, would soon have a vested interest in the peace and stability that are conducive to commerce, whereas suppression of economic viability results in desperation.

Extremists with an "Eretz Yisrael" as their apocalyptic pipe dream are as responsible as those with an "Islamic Caliphate" in their wonky noggins.

Rational folks can reach accommodation because they are guided by pragmatism, not by apocryphal visions.

 

No. It could be parts of the government doing the firing. But is the firing in response to Israeli aggression, or the initiator of it. An entire history can tell you the overwhelming force Israel brings down on Gaza with or without cause. That Palestinians would chose to fight back when they are being so abused is nothing more than I would expect from, say, Native American's or Mexican's if they were invaded by the US. It is a just reaction.

There's some questions you don't seem to be asking.

1. Was the rocket attacks the initiation of or the response to Israeli attacks, and where is the proof, either way?

2. If Israel was supposedly seeking a peace deal to avoid conflict, why did it reject the cease-fire by Palestine. What you are saying is that they didn't trust them, but that was not what they are saying. You are projecting your own thoughts onto Israel.

3. This did not start off as rocket fire into Israel. This was about the kiling of three Isreali citizens- something for which Israel decides to punish all of Gaza for. (a case like this, also, happened in the past, were two or three deaths of Israeli's by mysterious assailants resulted in the death of many people and about 50 homes bulldozed)

4. Put it in context. This isn't the first action like this by Israel. How did the Israeli's treat the Lebanese civilians? Why is it that many people and nations in the world are outraged by Israel and attempted to stop Israel from using this atrocious force against the Palestinians 33 times since 1979, but they were always vetoed by the US, who seems to be the only ones to endorse this apartheid nation?

These things you seem to kinda ignore- instead focusing on the immediacy of the situation of Israel under attack which is not true. Both are under attack- Palestine far more than Israel, but Israel, as usual, is made to seem like the only real victim.

 

Is Hamas admitting it themselves nuetral enough for you?


Hamas admits 600-700 of its men were killed in Cast Lead

"It has been said that the people were harmed by the war, but is Hamas not part of the people? It is a fact that on the first day of the war Israel struck police headquarters and killed 250 members of Hamas and the various factions, in addition to the 200-300 operatives from the [Izz al-Din] al-Qassam Brigades. In addition, 150 security personnel were killed, and the rest were from people."

700 would be half of your number of 1400 which makes it 1:1 civilian/combatant while fighting in a built up area, the lowest ratio of it's kind in the history of warfare.

"The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to-one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed.

That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one. In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia.

In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one."

"Comparatively large numbers" What exactly are you comparing the one to one ratio to? 10:1 in Pakistan, 4:1 in Yugoslavia, 10:1 in the First Chechen War, 4.3:1 in the Second Chechen War, 1982 Lebanon War 10:1, WWII 2:1 and on and forth, so 1:1 is pretty good in a built up area fighting an enemy determined to use civilians as shields and hide behind.

 

Israel will always be at risk until the Muslim world finally gives up this idiotic notion that Israel has no right to exist. Palestinians can live anywhere they want in Israel. Once the muslims give up this idea of eliminating Israel, there will be peace.

 

Palestinian citizens of Israel do have those rights. The pal's from Gaza and West Bank cannot.
just clarifying...

 

Far too many innocent people are being killed in Gaza, and no benefit derived from the slaughter. It is a failed policy that solves nothing.

 

Israel has to respond, if it did not people in the nation would wonder why they even bother to pay taxes or vote for the prime responsibility of a government is to protect the tax base. Hence one thing in all this rambling, writing, finger pointing is certain - Israel will act and, will act publicly and swiftly to take out whatever terrorist weapons they can. That's not to say that Hamas doesn't love this attention as Hamas enjoys it otherwise they wouldn't carry out terrorist attacks that only have one certain outcome - a swift lethal Israeli response. Possibly we all might remove their one and only plus - an audience that poo poos about Israel every time Hamas launches a terror attack.

 

It is a false equivalency you are attempting to present.

The fact that Hamas' and other Islamist group's intransigence is playing DIRECTLY into the hands of the neo-zionists led by likud and supported by the various jewish extreme zionist party's and the settler movement is the unforseen consequence of the Islamists shocking stupidity. Must come from thinking god is on their side.

 

A ridiculously simplistic analysis that completely ignores the real motivations of Hamas and the other Islamist thugs. For some reason you seem to think Hamas wants peace and is merely reacting to the evil jews aggression. You seem to be ignoring the Hamas Covenent, the repeated and continual rhetoric from Hamas leadership, and their complete disregard for the misery and suffering of their people that is a direct result of Hamas fanaticism and inablity to accept the existence of Israel.

you can use the false equivalency argument about North American natives vs the whiteman, but it isn't remotely the same.

The rocket attacks commenced when Hamas got its nose out of joint because the IDF went into Hebron and rounded up the usual suspects in the kidnapping and murder of the three teens. Seems that little exercise got them truly upset because many of of those picked up had previously been released under the deal concerning returning the IDF soldier after five years. Oooooh, as tho somehow Hamas thought that these guys were now immune to further Israeli action.

The tactic worked, and the two lead perps have been identified, although as yet not apprehended. If you want proof, the time line is readily available from multiple sources.

Israel accepted the cease fire that was proposed by Egypt. Hamas said no.

WRONG! Israel did not decide to punish all of Gaza. Israel decided to stop hamas from firing rockets or do you think that the 1400 rockets fired into Israel should simply be ignored. Again, check the time line from when the rockets started falling to when the first retaliation took place.

I have it firmly in context. Of course it isn't the first action like this from Israel, because it isn't the first action like that from Hamas. The Israelis treated the lebanese civilians for the most part as civilians in a war zone.

Well, roughly 1/7th of the world is outraged about Israel because the jews have reclaimed and "occupied" part of the ummah. I would not put too much emphasis on UNGARs as they aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

Apartheid nation? absolute rubbish. Seems that many palestinian supports can't tell the difference between a citizen of an occupier nation and a citizen of an occupied nation.

I don't ignore it. I have been closely following this conflict since 1967, and I assure you that I am well versed.

Again you demonstrate false equivalency. It isn't Israel's fault that it is militarily superior to the palestinians. It isn't israel's fault that the 90 lb weakling kicks sand in their face. And it sure as hell ain't Israel's fault that after almost 50 years of occupation the palestinians haven't figured out that established Israeli policy is disproportionate retaliation. Or do you think they are continually suprised by Israel's reaction every time it vastly exceeds the initiating incident.

Fact of the matter is, Hamas WANTS dead palestinians, the more civilians the better. There can be no other logical explanation for such fruitless token actions taken on their part, when they know what the reaction will be. They seem to want to perpetuate the perennial victim and the perpetual refugee image.

 

Interesting. Whats false about it?

The likes of likud and jewish right wing, as well as IDF hardliners undermining peace all acted long before Hamas even existed, moreover their intransigence at the time of Camp David played directly into the hands of Hamas, undermining the PLO and continually undermining the PA.

That said, it was only the effective resistance of hard line groups like Hamas that persuaded Israel that settling all the occupied territory was not going to be practical or affordable. Just like Egpyt, who, through resisting takeover of the Sinai, persuaded Israel that it could not keep it forever.

Hamas are only stupid if one thinks it is an intelligent move to give in to Israel and accept Israeli terms whatver they may be - do you think Israeli terms are reasonable and acceptable?

 

Indeed it has to respond. But why war when there are other options?

What terrorist attacks are you talking about? The rockets are no more terror attacks than any unguided missile or bomb is.

Why would Hamas enjoy the attention? Does it also enjoy its continuing seige?