Getting Healthcare Right

And in giving the family this minimal support no-body has to give up a job to look after Grandma and Grandma does not end up in a bed in a hospital

So it ends being cheaper

 

If this is true, then maybe we as a nation may not be worth saving.

 

Your desire is for others to pay more than you and for others to give labor to you, at reimbursement rates of your choosing, so that you can get what you want

 

I have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to ask me something, you have to frame it a lot more coherently than that.

You know nothing is free, right? You don't have to answer that, just know: Nothing worth talking about is free.

 

Sure, but wouldn't you like to know that throughout your life, you don't have to think about money when you need to see a doctor. If you need an operation, you get it. The only new cost you will incur, will only occur if you parked your car in the hospital parking lot. You don't have to save up for doctor and hospital bills in order to decide to have a baby. No matter what kind of horrible accident you get into, the ambulance will pick you up, take you to the nearest hospital, ans supposing you are in that hospital for six months with numerous operations and procedures, you will leave no poorer than before with no bill whatsoever.

 

What you just said makes no sense at all, in fact, it's a total non sequitur in relation to everything that precedes it.

 

Those of us who have the benefit of universal healthcare AND private insurance find the entire argument to be sad. In reality, all provincial health insurance plans basically supply a minimum standard of healthcare to its citizens. You want bells and whistles? No problem if you have employer group coverage, or you can purchase a private individual policy. In Ontario, OHIP covers about 70% of medical services. If you dont' have insurance you pay for things like dentists, physio, optometry, private rooms, psychotherapy,drugs (although a province wide established pricing) etc.. All taxpayers pay up to $900 (IIRC) in OHIP premiums and employers contribute a set amount per employee. Its collected as a payroll tax. Single billing makes admin costs for the lions share of medical services very low (especially since there is no profit incentive) so the system is far less costly to administer.

I had a heart attack, went to the hospital, had an angioplasty, spent two days in a private care room and another day in a ward, had 3 months of rehab and my bill came to Zero. I just walked out of the hospital, without even having to sign anything.

When I hit 65 in a couple of years, I will pay a $100 annual deductible and ALL my drugs will be free, with a dispensary charge of $2 and I'm covered throughout my retirement, no worries.

Its a medical system that ain't perfect by any means, but at least it works way better for the people and that should be the point, no?

 

Okay, let's see if I can explain it. It would cost less money if say someone goes to see the doctor when there's something odd on their skin, which turns out to be pre-cancerous and can be treated with a tincture, than when they finally decide they have to spend the money, go to the doctor, and now it is cancer and it's spread. Preventative medicine.

 

amen

 

That's the problem. People who don't care what something costs will jack the prices up. If we didn't care how much it costs to eat, we'd all be having lobster. Unfortunately, there's some guy in some government office that's going to be caring about what it costs to feed everybody lobster, so he's going to decide that we can make do with mac and cheese. then pretty soon they start cutting back on those powdered packages of cheese that come with mac and cheese.

Then you've got what your husband very intelligently called oxygen thieves who aren't pulling their own weight, and pretty soon you're going to be staring at a package of government ramen for your supper.

Sorry but no. You pay for what you want, and I'll pay for what I want. Yes, you'll have to worry about costs, but... it's really best that way.

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Some people just can't seem to get that through their heads.

 

You don't jack it up too high if you want re-election

 

So long as you understand I'm not gonna be paying for either, then I don't understand the relevance.

 

Same here - same in the UK

Not only that but because we have reciprocal health care agreements with countries that have nationalised health care (not sure about Canada specifically) I could get sick in the UK and be covered same as I am here in Australia. Pretty sure it is Canada/Australia as well but do not quote me as it depends on which country has signed what.

 

Fair enough...but short sighted.

Because those people who don't get the medical care when needed are going to wind up in the ER and hospital when things have gotten so bad, that they won't be turned away because they are seriously ill. Those costs are going to be absorbed into the system, which eventually means it will wind up jacking everyone's prices.

This is the way things were before ACA. This is what you want to move it back to?

OR, do you plan on massively changing the face of medicine altogether and alleviating doctors and healthcare providers from their Hippocratic Oaths?

 

See post #91

 

Of course it is not for free

But political death here is even suggesting that we remove Medicare - or even THINK about altering it. Aussies LIKE our free health care system. Basically we look at it as EVERYONE paying into a system that is for everyone.

And with chronic conditions cared for so they do not become more acute we have a longer life span, are more productive for longer and have a higher level of overall health

This despite a native population that is not as healthy - but we are slowly "closing the gap" there and winning. Unfortunately much damage to long term health of our indigenous people happened in the pre-natal and immediate post-natal period. Plus the western diet is killing them in the thousands

 

I like the idea of having Medicare for everyone that doesn't have the ability to get insurance. I don't understand why that is so difficult. Wait yes I do. The lobbyists are screwing us.

 

That's the part I understand. The part I don't understand is "free", and you guys don't understand it either even though you seem to think you do. It involves introducing a third party consisting of layers within layers of moral hazard. The tendency will then be for the regulatory requirements to favor efficiency over quality. Since the institution of the system is political in nature, demands on the system will continue to grow. Ultimately, as with any representative democracy, a point will come at which its economic engine can no longer sustain it and under it will go.

What you guys are asking for is simply unsustainable. It's also immoral, and I'm pretty sure that has something to do with why it's unsustainable.

 

Hippocratic oaths don't mean you get free health care. That is therapeutic nihilism, which is part of the oath.

 

You know, it gets frustrating dealing with people who purposely misconstrue terms to legitimize a half baked notion.

Therapeutic nihilism
is a contention that curing people, or societies, of their ills by treatment is impossible.

In medicine, it was connected to the idea that many "cures" do more harm than good, and that one should instead encourage the body to heal itself. Michel de Montaigne espoused this view in his Essais in 1580. This position was later popular, among other places, in France in the 1820s and 1830s, but has mostly faded away in the modern era due to the development of provably effective medicines such as antibiotics, starting with the release of sulfonamide in 1936.

The Modern version of the Hippocratic Oath:
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:...

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can but I will always look for a path to a cure for all diseases.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Notice the line that I highlighted?

 

Wrong

It is because Medicare is paying 27 cents on the dollar and Medicaid is paying 38 cents on the dollar.

The hospitals are over charging to make up for the government's consistent under funding, red tape and a lack of timely payments. Obama set it up to make insurance companies have to pay more for services than the services should reasonably cost. Thus, the spike in insurance premiums because the insurance companies were required to cover most bills without question.

But unfortunately, the Republicans are not addressing the main issue first which involves providing a consistent revenue flow for healthcare providers. That would help bring down actual costs faster than any other action.

 

Yes, I note the line you highlighted. It still doesn't mean you get free healthcare. One of the ills mentioned that you didn't highlight is the ills of society.

 

Hey, and I admire your right to hold onto what I believe to be a wilfully ignorant and selfish position. I truly hope you do have a very healthy life, because if you applied your thinking to your future circumstances, you may not feel the same as you do today. My 2 cents.