Gun Control In Australia...FAIL!

That is exactly what the gun laws do achieve. You get a licence, your legal obligation now commences. What is it, the safe handling and storage of the weapon, nothing else.

Second you mention car accidents, good, we licence drivers and register cars. Exactly the same thing. Now are you seriously going to tell me that not having to register your car, or needing to have it's drivability checked, would not increase the number of unsafe cars on the road. Yes we still have unsafe cares, and we have dickheads who pass cars that are not road worthy, and yes the death toll keeps going up, and yes P platers cause a large proportion of accidents, BUT

If we didn't have registration checks on cars, un-roadworthy cars would increase and so therefore so would the toll.

Same argument for car licenses. Yes we are tightening the rules, extending the time on Ps, is it enough? no, is it working? Not really. Would it be worse if anyone could drive, without a license, without a driving test, without road rules? Only an idiot would say NO.

 

DV has answered you admirably and succinctly

I would only add to ask if you have those statistics about accidental gun injuries and if you have ever seen the accidental firearm injury rate for the USA?

 

You're not making sense DB.

 

DB's answer was just nonsensicle rambling.

Google 'gun accidents' and I don't give a rats arse about the accidental firearm injury rate in the USA, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Australia.

 

See that is the thing - can't find anything like what you are saying

 

BB, you are flapping around in nowhere land. Sorry.

 

Fine - if you can find statistics on gun accidents later than 1999 then please be my guest - I am GOOD at google and I am having difficulties. I am even using Google scholar and not turning up anything

The most recent is this

 

You're not trying very hard are you BB. Below is just one site.

http://www.aic.gov.au/en/publications/current series/tandi/261-280/tandi269/view paper.aspx

'In total there were 5083 registered deaths attributable to firearms in Australia between 1991 and 2001. Suicides committed with firearms accounted for the majority of these deaths (77%), followed by firearms homicide (15%), firearms accidents (5%), firearms deaths resulting from legal intervention and undetermined deaths (2%). Over the 11 year period the number and rate of firearm related deaths has decreased (Figure 1 and Table 1). In comparison, there has been little change in the trend for deaths caused by sharp instruments. In 1991 there were 629 firearm related deaths in Australia compared to 333 in 2001. This represents a 47 per cent decrease in firearms deaths between 1991 and 2001. The incidence of both firearms suicides and firearms homicides almost halved over the 11 year period. While the number of firearms homicides has continued to decline, with 2001 recording the lowest number of firearms homicides during this period (n=47), the number of firearms suicides declined consistently from 1991 to 1998, but has since fluctuated. The number of firearm related accidents also fluctuated over the same period, from 29 firearms accidents in 1991 to 18 in 2001, but ranging between 15 and 45 over this time. While the numbers are quite small, the year 2000 recorded the highest number of firearms accidents (45 accidents) during the 11 year period.'

The above quote from the site given is rather interesting, look at the highlighted bits. What they don't give us is the statistics in relation to total suicides and homicides. The graphs in the site give us this and you will see that the gun laws achieved nothing, they did not alter existing trends.

 

And it is 2001 - eleven years old - and the data is lot later than 1998

I have been looking for RECENT data

Sorry fail

 

This was your original contention

Now the (very old) statistics you have presented me with show nothing of the sort - a single figure does not a trend make

 

The number of gun related homicides have decreased in percentage over the years along with the reduction in homicides in general in Australia. This data is up to 2011 in pdf format.

Over the past two decades, an average of 19 people per year have been killed by offenders using firearms.
•
The number of homicide victims killed by offenders using firearms decreased from 14 percent in 2008–09 to 13 percent of total homicides in 2009–10.
•
The proportion of homicide victims killed by offenders using firearms in 2009–10 represented a decrease of 18 percentage points from the peak of 31 percent in 1995–96 (the year in which the Port Arthur massacre occurred with the death of 35 people, which subsequently led to the introduction of stringent firearms legislation).

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf

 

I really do not understand your beef, anyone can get a gun, you just need a reason, do a simple test, and have a safe to keep the weapon in and you need to be of a certain age.
To look honestly at statistics (here I am an expert) you need to factor in all variables. The trend in 2001 could be totally different to what the trend would have been if gun laws weren't introduced.
Posters here rave on about, "Well we need to ban knives too, and baseball bats etc". We have seen an extraordinary increase in knife related assaults in Sydney. No I don't have links or references, common knowledge. Statistics are hard to get to make reliable comparative analysis.

Reading or watching the news and you will see it is happening. Now I could nearly guarantee that if a weapon was available in some of the homes these youths come from, that they would have used them. I would rather be confronted by a rogue youth with a knife then one with a gun.

Common sense tells us that the removal of unwanted weapons from homes where they were not really used. Keeping your weapons safely under lock and key has to be a safer option, especially where there are young children.

Yes we need to have some things legislated to make us do the right thing. Pool fences are an example of what we have, and barred windows on above ground windows should be another. Why, parents in general are slack at looking after the well being of their children, no not all and no definitely not you.

Who in Australia who wants a gun cannot get one?

 

Thanks but that is still not what has been contended - that the accidental injury rate from firearms has risen

 

Can I say it is a BLOODY SIGHT EASIER to suture a knife wound than it is to perform exploratory surgery to try and repair the hideous cavitation wounds left by some firearms

 

I`m sorry BB, but that is an emotional response. You didn`t seem interested, when I mentioned only one of many, far greater risks, that is pushbikes, especially for children, and most especially on public roads. This issue is obscene. HTF can we tolerate children being exposed to such risk?

 

But BB, the 2001 data is closer to the event of the gun laws, 5 years hence. Recent data cannot be linked as closely to any effect of the gun laws. Look at the graphs, you can't get around it, the statistics show that the gun laws did not affect any of the existing trends in homocide, suicide or accidents. Gun deaths have come down yes, but they were already falling before the introduction of the gun laws and if you look a little further you will find overall homocides, suicides and accidents were not affected.

 

DV, that is just plain decietful. You know very well there is a lot more to it than that. But if it is as simple as what you say, why are we bothering? You have failed to address my contention that there was no 'gun problem' to fix.

Conjecture and wishfull thinking are not variables.

But DV, you keep telling us anyone can easily get a gun and how does the law force people to do the right thing? What's to stop me from just leaving my gun laying around the house instead of putting it in the safe? Sensible people will do the right thing whether it is the law or not. Dumbarses will do the wrong thing regardless.

I assume you mean long arms and someone who is not a child, been convicted of certain offences or is insane. But if I want to own a rifle because I just like them, I can't have one, or if I want one to take camping so we can have fun shooting empty drink cans, I can't have one, or maybe I want to buy an old gun in poor condition so I can do it up and resell it at a profit, I can't have it. I can think of a few more, but the issue is in the past there was no problem with buying a rifle now there is and for no good reason.

 

If you read some of my posts in another thread you will see that when I was young a friend and I used to go shooting fox of a weekend. Well my friend has a bullet wound from an idiot shooting cans on the side of the road

 

I have to hand it to you - that is one of the biggest cherry picks I have seen since Mildura bumper crop

Most of the stats START in 1996 around the time of the gun buy back which in and of itself may have impacted on the outcomes.

However if you scroll to page 19 you will see a graph (figure 13) entitled "victims killed by firearms" and unless you have rotated the PDF 180% the graph trends down

But this is still not ACCIDENTAL injury and as far as I can determine we do not keep those figures

 

How do you know if I was interested or not? Just because someone does not reply to one post does not mean they are disinterested but the truth is that the whole "pushbike versus guns" is a statistical furphy generated by our old friends the NRA (check it out if you like you will find this tracing back to them)

Why is it a statistical Furphy, especially here in Australia? Because it does not take into consideration the exposure time and availability. If kids spent the same amount of time playing with loaded weapons as they do riding bikes then the statistics would be more even

 

I realize that for some people this is an emotional issue. Banning things does not get rid of them, guns, drugs, alcohol, etc. so it is naive to assume that a ban will get rid of guns. You may be right that it may reduce the number of people shot, but it won't really get rid of homicide. Almost 40% of homicides in Australia are caused by knives. It may reduce the number of people committing suicide with guns, but not the number of suicides, most people that want to kill themselves will do it eventually like a relative of mine that tried twice with Drano (drain cleaner) which worked the second time a decade later.

What gun bans do is remove them from the hands of law abiding citizens but not from the hands of criminals. Criminals by default do not care about the law. That is just a simple fact.

As far a accidental deaths? It would probably reduce those in the homes of people that are careless but so would training. In America there is a saying that the speed limit is just a benchmark for opportunity. We are not like the Germans that would follow the law and next election vote out those that passed the law. We just ignore the law to a large extent depending on the penalty. Ban guns here and they would be stashed all over the place the next day.

 

Never heard of the slang Furphy but you are probably right about the time/use relationship.

 

I have no idea if the NRA are also officially addressing the obscene number of push bike injuries and deaths in this country, but we can safely assume that their highly responsible, safety conscious membership is. If the NRA are getting involved in this problem, would your prejudice exclude you from assisting this cause? The "pushbike versus guns" idea, is quite dumfounding, and any responsible person should direct their energy toward real world problems, bizarre really.

Nobody in the real world is suggesting that kids play with firearms, but the simple truth is that an obscene number of kids are being killed, and maimed in push bike accidents.

 

(((((((((((((((((((((((sigh))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

NO read what I wrote - the STATISTICAL FURPHY belongs to the NRA. They are the ones who first started telling everyone guns were safer than push bikes

and I will warn you that if you continue to misconstrue what I have written I WILL place you were others are now residing - on my "don't bother reading" list

 

Good post. Australians will always have firearms. All the strict gun laws have done, is to drive a lot of firearms underground. It would have been far better to retain & improve safety and security laws, while taking harder action against criminals, but all we have acheived, is to create a more viable market for them.