House Passes Keystone Legislation; goes to Senate

"Claim"? You are doubting there will be thousands of non-construction jobs created?

We also build them down here in Alabama and Mississippi.

And what does all that have to do with anything?

They don't have to do any such thing, but if that is your position did you hold Obama accountable for all the jobs his $800,000,000,000 didn't create?

- - - Updated - - -

Then again that is transporting toxic crude oil, you know they type the Exxon Valdez spilled trying to transport it by sea instead of a pipeline. So how many major pipeline spills have there been in Alaska?

And you should stop trying to equate the transportation of these tar sands, which have massive effects on the environment from beginning to end with shipping regular crude or refined products through the pipelines:

The Keystone XL pipeline would have transported toxic tar sands from under Canada’s Boreal forest 2,000 miles to the Gulf of Mexico to be refined and exported. Approving the pipeline would bring increased production of one of the dirtiest, most polluting forms of oil over the coming decades.

Tar sands oil is not only difficult, costly and energy-intensive to produce but also dirtier and more corrosive than conventional oil. Leaks and spills threaten rivers, aquifers and communities all along the route.



And you thought that was GOOD for the environment?[/QUOTE]

- - - Updated - - -

Both are toxic and corrosive and pipeline companies are perfectly able to handle both.

 

Yet the reason for the interstate system was not cost effective mass transit. They were built as a war footing in case we had WWIII.

 

We have a Commerce Clause not a war clause; any questions?

 

Commerce has nothing to do with wealth redistribution.

 

A pipeline affects commerce; it really is that simple.

 

The commerce clause affects interstate commerce as in regulation 'between' States which means making it regular. I has nothing to do with building roads or pipelines other than making the cross boundary not affected by one State's law or another.

 

And one more is good? Why are we doing this again? Jobs? How many full time permanent jobs will this create? Is everything for sale in your world including our land, water and nation?

 

At a time when so many people cannot get a job it is foolish to throw any one of them away. What is it you don't like about working for a living?

 

Well, we could hire them to do all manner of things that actually benefit our nation instead of exploit it so that some Canadian oil firms can sell dirty oil to China. If you had lived in Kansas in 1866, I am sure you would have said to an Indian when asked why are you killing every single buffalo, its my job, don't bother me.

 

Left wing Keynesian logic: If the federal government diverts resources from the private sector to "create" temporary jobs that are dictated by central planning, thats great for the economy. If private companies respond to a real economic demand by funding temporary jobs for a project, that's suddenly economically pointless.

And some of the resulting resources my be exported overseas? The horror! No country's economy has ever benifited from exporting goods, right?

 

Jobs don't benefit our nation? Which planet are you from?

 

hmm, then stores should never hire Christmas help

states in the north should never hire snow plowers

landscapers should never be hired because the lawn doesn't grow in the winter etc etc etc

oh, and we should give representatives lifetime terms because it's only a 2-year job

 

yes, and you and I profit from roads... but who is gonna profit from this pipline? who can use it? the public? who get the bill for maintaining it?

.

 

not the "redistribution" to the rich the republican want

 

Yes, a pipeline is proposed to deliver goods, inter-State.

 

Rails I said not roads. Buffet is making millions off the toxic tar oil yet leftist don't care. If this the much hated K brothers doing what buffet is doing y'all would be in a frenzy. But buffet owns coal and tar sands and the left loves him. Hypocrites.

 

and were talking about pipelines, you brought up rails, I brought up roads

but you dodged the questions

who is gonna profit from this pipline? who can use it? the public? who get the bill for maintaining it?

 

As usual, a conversation with a conservative gains you nothing. If you want to fully grasp why our President never really asks your side's opinion, just look at this back and forth between us. There is no common ground. You cannot tell me how many permanent jobs this will create nor how much they pay nor what fees we get in return for risking our land, water and wildlife. In fact, you have no data or factual information at all to form your opinion yet you have one and feel strongly about it. Why? Because that is what your tribe believes and you lap it up like a puppy dog. Do you understand that some rational adults actually want to know the impact of such a decision before making the decision? Can you grasp this? Is it possible for you to even entertain critical thinking? I know the answer so don't bother. Critical thinking is a liberal plot to overthrow Murica. If I were Obama, I would veto it if passed and wait for the EIR from the State Department.

 

BTW, I looked it up and here is what I found for permanent jobs estimates:

"There’s very few jobs operating pipelines," said Ian Goodman, president of the Goodman Group Ltd., an energy and economic consulting firm in Berkeley, Calif. "That’s one of the reasons why pipelines are attractive to the oil industry. They’re relatively inexpensive to build and operate."

The report says the project would provide jobs for about 35 permanent employees and 15 temporary contractors."

Now it is true that the construction of the pipeline creates temporary jobs but if temporary construction jobs is your desired goal, then pass an infrastructure bill and lets put millions to work on our aging infrastructure.

 

Some on here think that Keystone will create thousands of jobs and that it take huge numbers to maintain a pipeline,

 

I am just glad the right doesn't really know what the terms, "to raise money for the general welfare", really means.

 

Louisiana 75 wrote: “The BP oil spill was a disaster, no doubt. With any industry, there will always be things like this that can and will happen. … You are questioning the jobs? … I'm confused on this one, how could they not deliver the jobs and build the pipeline?"

flyboy56 wrote: “Deep water oil drilling is far riskier than transporting oil via a pipeline. … even if only a few hundred get a permanent job after it is built it is still better than having no one get a job.”

For me, neither comment appreciates the ramifications of the BP spill nearly enough. It’s as if it’s no more relevant than if a house had burned down. Yes, I’m fully aware that complex extraction methods and the transit of that which has been extracted are two different processes. But the utter lack of ability to hold BP accountable & extraction methods should be part of the discussion. As already noted, tar sands oil is some of the dirtiest crude there is. Increasing a market & a reliance on this stuff only exacerbates the underlying problems of burning more fossil fuels.

To meet demand industry is having to employ ever-intensifying methods. They’re always having to go out further & drill deeper. With an enormous amount of water, pressure & chemicals they indiscriminately fracture entire swaths of the substrate to free up the gas. They strip mine the tops of mountains for coal. It’s just getting harder, not easier. Conversely, a real commitment to clean renewables may prove daunting at first, but eventually would be perfected. The difference of course is once alternatives are perfected, the entire concern over energy would be over!

Then there’s the reality of the fact that the big, bad commie government has proven unable to hold BP accountable. Last month a New Orleans judge found that BP had acted with “gross negligence”, the chief mechanic of the DeepWater Horizon rig said that he & his peers were pressured to ELIMINATE jobs to save money! Gross negligence and 11 people left dead should mean jail time!!! Where are the indictments, the arrests & convictions? Recently the NY Times ran an article citing a source stating that BP hadn’t even cleaned up a third of the oil. Another study cited scientists who have found a significant amount of oil resting on the ocean floor. The impact, not just environmentally but economically won’t be known for many years. Do you really believe that TransCanada won’t be able to operate with similar impunity?

Guess who we’re condemning ourselves to be? When this ridiculously failed model has run it’s course we’re going to be forgotten idiots, the second coming of the dark ages. Events like pearl harbor & 9/11 will be made mention of in one sentence to the next. Nothing more than in the context of a grossly flawed disconnect of humanity and the natural world. Once environmental degradation is something everybody can breath & taste future generations are going to look back at us with nothing but utter disdain. That we unquestionably engaged in a model that is extremely waste intensive, resource intensive & highly toxic. All so we could be less inconvenienced for a very brief period of time.

Know who you were yesterday? Perhaps not unlike my ancestors, you were on your own homestead doing & providing for yourself. For me, a key description of freedom is independence. Back then, you managed all your wants & needs yourself. What did we then become? Well, the vast majority of us are working for the man, doing jobs we hate. The tasks we perform all day are rarely a product of ourselves, but rather merely the requirements of the job. We then get some money so we can go back to the man and buy all the things we need that we once provided for ourselves. Some would describe that as freedom & democracy. I consider it complete dependency, institutionalization that creates extreme concentrations of wealth & power.

 

I sell equipment to gas and oil companies to monitor pipelines remotely. These things have sensors every few feet that report back to a central control center on all manner of conditions. Technology manages pipelines. People do not drive up and down it all the time looking for leaks and measuring pressure. Sorry, but pipelines are kind of easy to monitor centrally.

 

I love it.. I have been telling them for over a year and have been cussed and insulted because I told them that if it takes 1200 people to maintain a pipeline, they are in the wrong business.

 

Should be some solid data from other pipelines. This is not really about jobs, it is about exporting oil. The jobs thing is just a red herring to gain support from the uninformed .