How Can We Prevent Societal Rifts From Expanding into Violence

Voting Thread Open!

This thread is a companion thread to the one I created earlier regarding Russian efforts to sow and encourage division, discord, and violence in our country. How Should We Respond to Foreign Attempts at Sowing Discord and Violence.

In contrast to that one, which is geared towards asking what we should do in response to such subversive foreign measures... the purpose of this companion thread is to instead more specifically ask exactly What we should do to prevent, respond to, and or mitigate the violence which may occur as a result?

In the previous thread I gave several examples of the variety of tactics the Russian government uses to divide us and push us towards violence. Some of those tactics being completely virtual, while others involving in-person actors, be they Russian agents themselves or even local citizens contracted to sow the discord and violence on Russia's behalf via coercive means or by co-opting pre-existing extremists within a target country such as our own. Speaking of which, here is one more example of the sorts of things the Russians have gotten up to in other countries and what they now appear to be perpetrating within the U.S.

"On June 12, Macedonian and Greek officials announced that the country would change its name to North Macedonia to end a three-decade dispute with Greece, which saw “Macedonia” as implying territorial aspirations over a Greek region of the same name.

Once the country became North Macedonia, Greece would lift its veto on the country joining NATO. A formal vote to adopt the new name was set for late September.

Moscow was not pleased. At a conference in Athens three days after the agreement, a top Russian diplomat issued a stark warning to the West about the plans to invite Macedonia into the alliance.

“Sure, we will not shoot nuclear bombs,” said Vladimir A. Chizhov, Russia’s ambassador to the European Union. “But,” he added, “there are errors that have consequences.”

Mr. Chizhov’s threat prompted a series of diplomatic cables back to Washington from Geoffrey R. Pyatt, the American ambassador to Greece who was at the same conference, to warn that Moscow was going to try to stymie the upcoming referendum. The State Department, the C.I.A. and the Pentagon’s European Command, based in Stuttgart, Germany, were already on the case, officials said.

By then, opposition to the referendum had already surfaced in Macedonia. Over the summer, there would be hundreds of new websites calling for a boycott of the vote and Facebook posts urging Macedonians to burn their ballots — classic disinformation, Macedonian and American officials said, directed by Russian-backed groups.

The day of the agreement, there were also violent protests outside the Parliament building in Skopje, the Macedonian capital.

Enter Mr. Savvidis... As the owner of the Greek soccer team, PAOK FC in Thessaloniki, he famously stormed the field during a match this year against an Athens team while armed with a holstered handgun and surrounded by bodyguards. The Athens team’s players left the field over concerns for their safety and the match was abandoned.

In June, American officials determined from the intercepts of his communications — email, texts, phone calls or a combination — that he had been paying the protesters.

One senior United States official said American agencies were able to easily collect financial data that put Mr. Savvidis behind payments to citizens and soccer fans to incite violence against the Macedonia referendum.

According to the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project, an investigative reporting organization, Mr. Savvidis paid opponents of the campaign to rename Macedonia at least 300,000 euros, or about $350,000.

Those who received the money included Macedonian politicians, newly established radical nationalist organizations and Vardar club soccer hooligans, who staged the violent protests in front of the Parliament building in Skopje, the project reported." U.S. Spycraft and Stealthy Diplomacy Expose Russian Subversion in a Key Balkans Vote​

In summary, a Russian agent was caught paying off local Macedonian citizens and politicians to stage violent protests. One has to wonder given such a scenario whether or not some of our own fellow citizens and or politicians may be being payed off in a similar manor. And at any rate, there is certainly ample evidence that Russian tactics are one way or another beginning to manifest in very worrying ways here in the states.

I'm sure by now most of you have all already heard for instance about recent events involving vandalism, and the subsequent Proud Boys incident. I'm actually not particularly familiar with the specifics of these events myself as they only just occurred, and its difficult to tell just how much involvement Russia may have had in either case,... but its clear that clashes like these are just what one would expect from a targeted campaign of foreign 'active measures' geared towards sowing discord and fomenting violence. The question, again, is what are we, the peace-loving citizens of this country going to do about it? Hopefully we don't reach the point of assassinations, poisonings, and or disappearing journalists.

As previously proven in the Charlottesville case, these sorts of situations can easily lead to death, we can't just ignore them, and note that even that situation was heavily influenced by Russian trolls simply stoking the flames of violence online with “a strategic goal to sow discord.” As I noted in the previous thread, Russian efforts to get us to start killing one another can and likely will (if they already haven't) go much farther than that, potentially to include Russian agents, and or American citizens who have been contracted/influenced by Russia, intermingling among disparate protest groups in order to spark conflict.

Russian Trolls Swarmed The Charlottesville March — Then Twitter Cracked Down​

And if history is any indicator, there is a high probability, despite potentially being made up almost completely of Americans at this point, that groups like the Proud Boys and AntiFa may actually have been created themselves by Russian agents specifically for the purpose of pitting them against each other and sparking violent conflict more broadly. I mean, I don't know about the rest of you, but these groups did seem to almost come out of nowhere, I do not recall ever hearing about AntiFa prior to just a year or so ago when people suddenly began talking about it almost non-stop, and the Proud Boys, similarly a complete enigma until just recently. Just speculation of course, but their spontaneous and seemingly improbable creation does appear to be highly suspect and they don't really strike me as the type of things Americans would go out and create on their own.

Even so, it should be noted that "...The American public is bitterly divided with or without Russian trolls," and we need to consider how we tamp down on violence in general, as well as what to do in response to violence if things start to get out of control. In other words, regardless of what their origin is, groups like AntiFa and the Proud Boys are here, and we have to consider what to do about them if we want to prevent them or other groups from getting violent/what to do if they do.

We should also consider I think, why it is that people join such groups in the first place. I for one wouldn't ever participate in groups like that, but just looking at their stated ideologies, it isn't difficult to see why many Americans might find them appealing.

At an extremely high level, Proud Boys basically stand for let boys be boys and girls be girls, while AntiFa, the Anti-Fascists, in contrast stand for... well... anti fascism. As a matter of fact, such stated positions are so broadly appealing, that there are likely many Americans out there who could in theory identify with either group and likely do to some extent hold many of the same beliefs of both groups combined even if only in part. And yet, suppose I am one such American, and I want to join one of these groups... which do I join? In the end it may simply come down to a coin toss, and yet the way things are set up now, as soon as I join either group, wham, I have essentially made enemies of the other group despite probably agreeing with 99% of what they purport to be all about. This is why putting people into such boxes is so destructive. The more established or concrete the box, the worse off things will be. To use such organizations as a means to instill division and incite violence,... is really quite ingenious... but...

...What the Russian government is doing, these so-called 'active measures' as well as the actions of those who emulate them, instigating and or perpetrating violence in our streets, to put it bluntly, it is nothing more than terrorism plain and simple. Imagine ISIS or Al Qaeda with the only difference being that instead of making a point to take credit for the terrorist acts themselves, Russia instead tries to get us to blame them on our neighbors. Strong words, I know, but they fit the bill and something must be done. Still though, our response to such things must be measured and sensible at the same time.

So again, What should we do to prevent, respond to, and or mitigate political violence? Simply standing around pointing fingers at each-other while doing nothing else hasn't worked, likely wont work, and is actually just what the Russian government wants. Are you, my fellow forum posters, going to fall head first into their ploy? Will you contribute to the violence and division? Or are you going to be a part of the solution?

Further reading:

Mob of white nationalist ‘Proud Boys’ brutally beat several men
Russian Facebook trolls pushed for race-based violence
How a Blunder Unmasked 305 Russian GRU Agents
​

-Meta

 

Ideas so far:

-Remove Press Protections such as the Actual Malice Standard
-Relax Inciteful Speech Exception to 1st Amendment and base it off audience size
-Hold Politicians to Higher Standard for Inciteful Speech and impose stiff penalties & fines on violators
-Impose Civil Liability statutes on state and local jurisdictions which do not enforce breach of peace laws
-Get Politicians and other leaders to tone down their rhetoric in general [1][2]
-Stem violence by addressing inequality, healthcare, low wages, homelessness, and automation induced job loss
-Hold our emotions in check and remember that we are all Americans and that propaganda is meant to divide and not unite
-Eliminate the electoral college
-Mandate that electoral college votes be apportioned by the popular vote
-Eliminate Sunshine laws in order to grease the wheels for congressional compromise
-Eliminate Gerrymandering and political involvement in drawing voting districts
-Eliminate soft money, PACs, corporate & union campaign contributions and control self-contributions to reduce voter cynicism
-Get Main Stream Media to discontinue demonizing opposing factions [1][2]
-Fight Back in Self-defense if you are Attacked [1][2][3]
-Ensure Open Access to Information, including Spin Narratives
-Elect New Class of Leaders Concerned with Problem Solving Rather than Politics
-Elect Ambitious Leaders who Empower and Inspire Others to Achieve a Vision
-Elect Leaders who Share Credit in Success and Take Responsibility for Mistakes
-Elect Leaders who Unite Rather than Divide
-Elect Leaders who project quiet strength, rising above slights, who listen to and respect other voices
-Elect Leaders like John McCain with Uncompromising Values who can be Respected by both sides and act as Umpire
-Recognize Ad Hominem name-calling and Commit to Avoid Engaging in it
-Deal with Ideas Rather than Pejoratives and Personal Attacks Towards People
-More Guns, Everyone should have their own gun, Stay armed
-Ignore People who Engage in Ad Hominem Attacks
-Arrest and Fine All Protesters who Gather Illegally in the Streets without a Permit
-More Suspensions and or Firings when Employees Engage in Racially Abusive Language
-Enforce the Law, Evenly and Consistently, but also Aggressively
-Get rid of multiculturalism and identity politics
-Get rid of all of the labels - we're all Americans
-If you don't like living in the country, move
-Those who shoot cops or attack people should be arrested and vigorously prosecuted
-Make sedition a prosecutable offense
-Get rid of PACS other Special interest groups and such
-Minimize federal government and federal powers
-End the Federal Government, Tear Up the Constitution, and Split into Sovereign States
-Clearly Define what Constitutes Voter Suppression and make it a Criminal and Civil Offense
-----------
-Remove Every Gun Free Zone Sign in the Country
-Understand that our Differences are what drive us forward and that we should love, not hate each-other because of them
-Protect our data and elections by putting it all in one password-restricted server accessible by top brass only
-Follow the dark money and determine who is funding the civil unrest and constant smears
-Require people posting online to use their real face and ID
-Declare Martial Law
-Remember that democracy is a place where all views are free to exist, respect the views of others, and be open to compromise​

 

Russia may not have written what you read, but as both this thread and the other illustrate, they very well could be behind it in one way or another nonetheless. As the examples posted in the OPs show, they have a knack for getting others to do their dirty work for them. Also, it should be pointed out that it is very difficult to actually tell who someone is online. If someone tells you online that they are liberal or conservative for instance, you should not simply just take them at their word.

Having said that, what you imply is true too, Russia or no Russia, we have some very strongly ingrained political divisions regardless.
Personally though, I don't believe that allowing things to slip further and further into chaos is a good option to choose.

-Meta

 

Yes I agree! Hopefully we can use this thread to brainstorm some good options.

-Meta

 

Hmm, I'm not so sure that that one's such a great idea. We've seen with several recent events, including the recent alleged killing of
Jamal Khashoggi, just what sorts of things happen to reporters in other countries, and this, even in places where attacking them in such ways is supposedly illegal. In such an environment, do we really want to be reducing the amount of press protections??? I fear such a thing would only embolden those who want to persecute the press for reporting the truth by making legal additional persecution options. Perhaps there is room though, for some additional restrictions to be placed on the press, but its my view that we need to be extremely careful if going down this route. We absolutely do not want to end up in a situation where reporters start getting arrested simply for doing their jobs.

Can you expand on this one a bit more? What exactly is the idea here?

I actually think this one is a pretty decent idea. Though of course, just as in matters relating to the press,
we would want to be extra careful in any implementation of something like this such as not to run afoul of the first amendment.

Another decent idea, though this one would likely be the most difficult of the lot to actually implement.

I will add all these ideas to the list a bit latter.

-Meta

 

Hmm, these ideas could have merit...
but how exactly then would/should we define what exactly constitutes a "political goon" and or "political goon squad"?
Particularly if we are thinking about getting law enforcement involved, I think its important to clearly define what counts as a "political goon".

-Meta

 

Agreed! And I will add this to the list in a bit.

-Meta

 

So you're saying... that the best way to prevent violence
is to reduce the number of disillusioned individuals who might be lured into it
by solving for some of society's other pressing issues such as healthcare, low wages, homelessness, and automation-induced job-loss?

That actually makes a lot of sense, and I will definitely add this to the list.

-Meta

 

So what are you guys saying here... that we should just sit back and do nothing while things continue to spiral further and further out of control??

-Meta