http://www.politicalforum.com/3142843-post642.html Do you want to stop with the feigned offense now? need another? But...oh...you do. See above. I don't assume you are being intentionally hypocritical--I think you have a chip on your shoulder with regard to religion.
But that is not at all what I said--in fact, I criticized BFOJ for saying (rather implying) that. I said the opposite.
That is true. You said that "all that is good in them comes from God and so their morality and their moral beliefs are also of God". Which is too vague to be arrogant. So you're right, the "case" must refer back to that of BFOJ. My apologies.
LOL That doesn't make any sense. Arguing against what one does not believe is the right way to argue. Similarly, arguing in favor of what one does believe is also correct. You see, NaturalBorn, for just about every issue, there are people who find themselves either believing or not believing in a certain viewpoint. Those who believe in the viewpoint always argue in favor of that view. Most importantly, those who do not believe in the viewpoint always argue against that view. That's the right way to argue if you're going t argue. No mental instability needed. LMAO @ the babytalk I have to utilize to try to get through to these people. Atheists don't call Christians stupid just because they believe in God and Jesus. Atheists call Christians stupid because so many Christians say things like what NaturalBorn said and honestly believe it is a valid attempt at logic.
You could ALSO point out, in addition to your excellent response, that many Christians love to argue with Muslims or Mormons, and clearly the Christians believe Allah and the Mormon God are fictitious. Turn it right back on them .
But let's face it, any Christian who is truly at peace with his belief in his religion wouldn't be spending any time on the internet debating atheists about it. The Christians here are your typical Sunday Christians who go to church, but leave it all at the church. They come here to get those little kicks we all want from arguing stuff on the internet. Those "kicks" are Satan's temptations. And the Christians who can find it in them to post here are already as lost as any atheist here. Most of them will not be Christians after they finish puberty. Real Christians do happy, helpful things in their spare time. They don't get on the internet to be combative with atheists. That hate and anger you feel which inspires you to attack the other posters personally is your transport carrying you to the dark side, to the gates of Hell. We'll all be there together.
Ahh, I am a fool because I believe that revenge is a good thing for many people, that capital punishment is good because it prevents a criminal from ever committing another crime, hmm, interesting.
Pick up any paper and read it, you will find it contains many of the idiocies of religion, hatred, ignorance and stupidity. Islam, Hindu, Christianity, Judaism are slam full of hatred,bigotry and stupidity. Look around the world, there are currently 44 wars going on, 44 of them involve RELIGION. We went into iraq because of religious terrorists, we went into Afghanistan because of religious terrorists, Israel is a religious nation fighting other religious nations, Pakistan and India, Muslims against Hindus, and on and on. Stating fact is not faith, but the facts support my faith that religion is HORRID, EVIL and senseless.
OK, I took a look and I saw no god, no creation, just a universe, a natural universe of unknown cause, NOT a CREATION. I did say, bigotry, hared, fear and war, often caused by those who believe in a god. So - looking at reality tells me we ought to do away with religion and mans belief in gods.
Grant me the will to change the things I cannot accept; courage to fight bigotry; and wisdom to refrain from the acceptance of idiocy. “Living for the future; Enjoying each moment and seeking to improve the future; Accepting hardships only until they can be changed; Taking reality as it is, not as religious nuts would have it.” –TomTeaPack
You're funny. What I am saying is that by saying "God created the Universe" and "The Big Bang Caused the Universe" you are in fact saying the same thing, that is if you truly understand what "God" and "The Big Bang" mean, one philosophically, the other scientifically. It is when one attempts to push forth an image of God (what you refer to as "Religion") is when one denies the reality of "God." When one attempts to use semantics to create an argument, then they are as well attempting to lift their ego over another's dignity. I am a scientist with religious education. I do not promote an "Intelligent God" but instead, as I said, "God as a Force of Creation." Which, if you do not attempt to put other peoples' image of God (their Religion) onto my expression of the word "God," is no different than a competent scientific explanation of the Universe. When you say you see no God, what were you looking for? Another person's image of God or your own interpretation of God? If you see God as hate, bigotry and fear, are you sure it is God you are looking at? Have you perhaps mistaken Satan for God? Have you let others push their "God of hate, bigotry and fear" onto you? And when I say "Satan" I refer to a gravity of man's self indulgence. Self worship. The belief that they are in fact God (or of God more than another) and not held to morals that form Natural Law. Satan is the gravity of every individual that attempts chooses to act against Nature, a force that accumulates in War and Famine and Oppression. It is your choice if you focus ("worship") on Satan, or on God. On the gravity of hate and fear, or the force of love and understanding. When you see hatred do you not also see love? Or have you let the hatred of some blind you to the love of others? Which do you prefer to focus on? I see the hatred, however, I rarely focus on it. I need not let it fill my sight to know it exists, and knowing what it is only reinforces my desire to focus on love instead. And the more I focus on love the less hatred I see. You create the world you live in. You are responsible for your environment. There is oppression that must be fought, but once you are free, do you continue to search it out? Is it fighting that will free the oppressed, our building? You may need to fight the oppressor for some time, but to truly free the oppressed you must build their spirit and their self. However, the only slave that you can truly free is yourself. How long will you fight your oppressor until you begin to lift your self? If it is your observation of the world around you that oppresses you with hate and frustration, are you not your own oppressor? How long will you fight yourself before you realize there is no victory in it? You say "we" should do away with religion, is not your pessimist view of reality your religion? Who is to say I have not already done away with religion in my own life and am enjoying the peace of mind from it? If you do not share that peace of mind, are you sure you have already done what you demand from others?
How do you fight bigotry? Not, how should others fight bigotry, but what do you specifically do to fight bigotry? Does not the bigot judge others by their Religion and not their actions? Does not the wise understand that some are idiots? How is it wise to not accept this as reality? Is it foolish to not admit that others are fools? Is it wise to think you can eradicate foolishness? How do you propose to do that? What is the goal of not accepting idiocy? Is the future not a present yet lived? If you are always living in the future, will you be living in it when it is present? To deem one a nut, yet rest your happiness on them giving up being a nut, is a self-destructive approach to social living. A nut is a nut, to create conflict with that is to be a nut yourself. What is your approach to solving the problems of the world? What work have you done? How successful was it? Have you let the faults of others distract you from your work? Are you having problems focusing? Have those you put down as idiots somehow gotten you to act more foolish than them?
Except, of course, if you go beyond the religious statement and attempt to find out where God comes from, it merely emphasizes that it is nothing but a meaningless mantra. The scientific statement may become wrong but it never becomes meaningless. I believe you just tried to assign value to your true understanding of what "God" means by using nothing but semantics. My condolences. Would it really matter if truly understood what "Satan" means? In fact, I'm quite postive that one can take your semantical argumentation above and arrive at the conclusion that if you truly understand what "Satan" means then saying "Satan created the Universe" is the same as saying "God created the Universe" is the same as saying "the Big Bang created the Universe" is the same as saying [insert anything you want].
What happened before the Big Bang? I've been wondering if the end of "time" and the beginning of "time" are the same point in time. If the universe is to expand into void, perhaps the gravity of "dark matter" or "dark energy" (or both if they are of similar origin) would pull the expanded universe (of void, or relative void) back on itself at such a speed that it actually travels "back in time" (faster than the speed of light) and condenses into what we refer to as the "primordial atom" which then releases itself into what we call "The Big Bang." So then the beginning and the end is the same, or "The Alpha and the Omega." I'm not suggesting that Exodus is a true story, or that Moses (or whoever wrote it) had some greater cosmic understanding than we assume (for some reason the common thought that the Mayans had this greater knowledge isn't as shunned as thinking early Hebrews may have). But the literature does make good analogy. What I was referring to was an argument in the manner of a fight. Like, taking a word someone said and making it a "big deal" to then cause a dispute for no reason. It is basically a "Gotcha" type tactic to try to lower someone else. Read the statement I was responding to. What I think you thought I meant was to use semantics to create an argument of discussion, like "Well to me God means this so you're wrong." Which is exactly the point of my original response. I was attempting to say that if the only difference between a Christians view and an Atheist view is a word, then there is no difference, and that instead of "debating" them, it might be better to see how you actually agree (unless you think the world was created 6,000 years ago, or that Jesus rode Dinosaurs, then you will have a scientific debate on your hands). I explained that I have a view of what the character "God" means that is "truer" because it does not actually make any scientific claims. It is philosophical. So, for me to then call someone a fool for not agreeing with my version would be foolish of me. When I talk to Christians who believe the literal biblical definition, I don't put them down, I simply express my own view and listen to theirs. I was hoping to show that there are different interpretation of "God" and that for the individual, to let other people's negative use or view of the word determine your use or view of the word is self-destructive. If you think that what religious folk use God to do is bad, why would you then use that definition yourself? That is not to say that some religious institutions teach that definition of God, and I agree that those institutions are perverting the concept. Satan is the Hebrew word for "obstruct, oppose." In the Stories of the Bible, the character Satan represents that which opposes the natural order (which is represented by God). You may simply say, that "Satan" is the "force" (or beneficiary of the actions of Men) that go against Nature. Anything that goes against the peace of individuals. Hate, violence, fear, etc. Satanists follow Satan as God, to them, those acts are the Natural Order of things. It is the imprisonment of "God" or Yahweh (who, in the Bible, when asked his name, said "I am what I am and I shall be [what I] shall be", so the character represents reality, or what is) is the consideration of others, doing your best and not giving into self-indulgence. Now, if someone were to say, "Oh, I thought Satan was what you just described God as, and God was you just described Satan as," then yes, it would be a matter of semantics. If someone thought a "Murderer" was someone who plants gardens in poor communities, then to them a "Murderer" would be a good thing. However, it would also show a poor understanding of language. "God" is a term that, while having linguistic meaning, is also open to interpretation. Which is just my point, what you interpret "God" as tells a lot about yourself. You have heard of a Rorschach test right? It's just a smudge of ink, but what you see has to do with your own psyche. God is just a word, it is also a character in a book, what you take from that has a lot to do with your self. I studied literature analysis in college, how someone interprets the "meaning" of a book has a lot to do with them as a person.
I don't know but that doesn't make it a less meaningful question. What happened before God can only be answered with either "nothing" or "what happened before that god then?" Which renders it utterly meaningless. Now you're merely citing other people's images ('their Religion') whereas I'm of course citing true understanding. If you truly understand what "Satan" means then "Satan created the universe" is 'no different than a competent scientific explanation of the Universe'. It is when you attempt to push forth an image of Satan (referred to as "Religion") that you deny the reality of "Satan".
NO, neither Christians, Muslims, Atheists are permitted to force their beliefs on others. If you want it legal for a man and woman to be married, fine. But you, despite your religion do NOT have the right to prevent that same right to others, including gays. You cannot force YOUR morals on others, nor can I force MINE on you. Seeking equality and justice is not the same thing as seeking conformity to your views and morals. We have reshaped the entire nation many times, that is what happens. We have eliminated slavery and allowed women to vote for just two of the thousands of ways we have reshaped our nation. We have made it a better place by reshaping it. And allowing gays the same legal rights as other citizens will again improve the nation. Equality is a GOOD thing. Equal rights under the law is a great thing. A nation that grows and changes to meet the needs of its citizens is an amazing thing. A nation that refuses change, stagnates and soon disappears. If you want the freedom to believe as you wish, worship or not worship as you wish, then in this nation YOU MUST give that same right to others. Just because your religious beliefs require one thing of you, does NOT allow you to force those things on others.
Sounds like just another religiously bigoted thread to me. What harm is there in getting married and divorced 50 times if you so choose (and can afford it)? NONE!
As off topic as this is, I had to respond. Religion is a non-issue here. Try looking at marriage vows. If you are proven to be an oath breaker, why should you be allowed to make the same oaths over and over again? It's not just God you are lying to, it is society. If a person is that full of crap, they should just **** and quit making promises they won't keep. It's just bad manners.
OK, you are wrong in so many ways. To equate the acceptance of a scientific theory to the superstitious belief in a god is kinda not allowable. To say that I as an atheist I claim that the big bang caused the universe is just wrong, because I have no idea what, if anything caused the universe. Creation is nonsense, it is a religious concept that requires a prior belief in a god. Since no god or gods exist there can be no such thing as creation. Oh, just for fun so you understand what I am talking about: God - a being or object believed to have more supernatural attributes and powers and to require human worship. Religion - the service and worship of a God or the supernatural being. Creation - religiously speaking, the act, by a god or gods, of bringing the universe into ordered existence. If you choose instead as you seem to enjoy, to make up your own meanings, hmm, no one can ever understand you. OK to continue, there is no god or gods, that includes the christian Satan. No gods, demons, devils, angels or any other supernatural nonsense happen to exist. NO, I do not see love when I see hatred. Religion teaches hatred, go read the bible. It is godly and wonderful to rape, murder, steal, loot and commit genocide on anyone that is NOT one of Gods children. The tale of JERICHO is one of many such wonderful examples in the bible. Anyone that can accept the tale of JERICHO also learns that it is good to kill for god. That teaches, bigotry, hatred and worse towards those that are NOT of the same religion. To claim the only slave that can be freed is yourself is idiotic, The slaves of the world were not in most cases freed by themselves, but by others that believed slavery was wrong. I do not fight myself, I am quite comfortable with who I am, even with my few faults. I do try and do what I can to fight ignorance, stupidity, hatred and bigotry in others, and myself when it happens to show up. I guess that is enough. Your post rambled on and on with so much nonsense that I am having trouble selecting which of the dozens of things to address, and I dislike long posts, so..........
You should look up Baruch Spinoza for an alternative definition of God. Spinoza's God is still universal creator and infinite in capacity, but much more palatable to the scientificly minded. Einstein was an adherent of Spinoza, and was referring to this conception of God in his famous quote about playing dice.
The oath or any words said during a marriage have no legal validty other than the "I DO'S". What makes a marriage in American is the Marriage contract and contracts can be invalidated by courts. A divorce is a legal method of invalidating a marriage contract. One the Marriage is ended LEGALLY, there is no legal reason not to have another marriage. Now, if YOU choose because of some religious or other reason to NOT get married more than once, that is YOUR decision, but in this nation you have no right to enforce that belief on others, in violation of law.
