If Jesus died for my sins

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Jolly Penguin, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I see no contradiction. I do see most sages etc., including Jesus, saying the same thing I do.

    Regards
    DL
     
  2. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    True.

    Jews never considered Yahweh to be prick enough to do purposeless torture in hell.

    It took Christians to make Yahweh so evil.

    Regards
    DL
     
  3. RoccoR

    RoccoR Active Member Past Donor

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    RE: If Jesus died for my sins
    SUBTOPIC: The Character of a Deity?
    ⁜→ Injeun, et al,

    BLUF: This does not resolve the question. What is a Supreme Being ("God") or deity? What does it mean to be a Supreme Being or deity? Do these entities transcend death? Is there a supernatural quality to them?

    (COMMENT)

    The paradox of whether or not there is a divine existential unity that links the Supreme Being, the elixir of the lifeforce, and the universe?

    Is there a difference between the embodiment of the Supreme Being and the incarnation of a man that adheres to the life cycle (birth → the pain of life death)?

    To say that "He allowed himself to be crucified and his body to perish by choice" is the very description of suicide. And IF the Supreme Being cannot die THEN in the death of a supernature possessing a body (flesh inhabited by a deity, spirit, or abstract quality), what is proven? IF you are immortal (no matter what form you take) THEN what risk is there to life and death. Do pain and death have meaning to a supernatural entity that stands above all other beings in the universe? In the tripartite arrangement to the Supreme Being (the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit) does the self-destruction (suicide) of one member of the trinity have an impact on the remainder?

    In the topic of this thread is one-half of an IF THEN Statement... "If Jesus died for my sins" THEN what?

    ◈ Did the "Son" in the trinity actually die? (Or was it just a shell inhabited and control by a deity?)

    ◈ Was there any risk of a loss by the "Father?" (Or was this a drama played-out for the audience?)

    ◈ Was there any actual pain and suffering? (Or is it some sort of supernatural special effects?)

    If you are going to tell me you did something for me, it means nothing if there is nothing expended. If you "paint my house" for me over the weekend, you have expended time, energy, and money. That is not to mention the risk of injury or property damage. In the question, what was expended, what was risked, and what benefit did I gain in the situation where the forgiveness could have been achieved by the snap of the supernatural fingers.

    (∑)

    To accept without question a malarkey such as this "died for my sins" is true faith based on nothing. It is like the gravitational wave scientists finally observed. But when it passed through Earth, I didn't notice a thing. When the two black holes orbiting each other finally merged 1.3 billion years ago, it had very little impact (in fact no impact at all) on me when it passed through Earth.

    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  4. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Strange that a moral Christian, or any other moral man, walking by a man punishing his innocent son instead of the guilty one, would intervene on behalf of the innocent son.

    Yet their theology has them spiritually walking by and not doing so in the case of Jesus.

    This is a double moral standard that shows clearly that Jesus would not ask moral people to accept such a satanic "I died for you", immoral policy.

    The Christian god has no clothes. Christians will not tell him.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  5. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Ah, selective blindness and a messiah complex, what wonderful combination. Have you ever considered a career in politics. You could go far. That said I think I'll leave you basking in the glow of your own intellect.
     
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  6. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with your conclusion that it is suicide. He allowed those who hated him to kill him, and he suffered death because it had to be done for not only them but all mankind. It is not suicide. But is rather a sacrifice of a blameless being who had overcome all temptation to atone for the breaking of an eternal law which brought death into the world. And by taking his body back up again after three days, he scored a path and precedence for a resurrection to eternal life. We did not give ourselves life. We cannot absolve ourselves for our sins or purify ourselves. We cannot overcome death and resurrect ourselves. We can do very little in life but make choices and learn. At least that is my very limited view.
     
  7. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    One loves and embraces that which one loves and embraces. One hates and rejects that which one hates and rejects. One makes ones own choices. One writes ones own words. One speaks ones own heart. And one writes ones own ticket. What other than to respect ones will would you have God do? If God says, I will put away my enemy, so do not align with him or I will put you away with him. And if you align with Gods enemy and are put away with him. You cannot call it an injustice or a surprise or a trick. It is plain. God blessed us with our lives, and reaches out to us in a multitude of ways all the length of our lives. His judgments are just, as solid as a mountain and fair as fragrant blossoms on a spring morning air.
     
  8. RoccoR

    RoccoR Active Member Past Donor

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    RE: If Jesus died for my sins
    SUBTOPIC: The Character of a Deity?
    ⁜→ Injeun, et al,

    BLUF: Yes a good position for the faithful to hold.

    (COMMENT)

    Whether you call it "Assisted Termination of Life," or "Self-Sacrifice" or a "Human Offering" is unimportant and merely a matter of semantics.

    The questions still remain?

    ◈ Did the "Son" in the trinity actually die? (Or was it just a shell inhabited and control by a deity?)

    ◈ Was there any risk of a loss by the "Father?" (Or was this a drama played-out for the audience?)

    ◈ Was there any actual pain and suffering? (Or is it some sort of supernatural special effects?)

    There is no sacrifice and no offering → and thus no need for the ceremony if no life force that cannot regenerate itself is lost.

    ◈ Why does the Supreme Being, the ultimate creator, need such a display?

    ◈ What difference does it make?

    ◈ What did this demonstrate?​

    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
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  9. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Limited to teaching that to abdicate ones responsibility for the wrongs we do, and allow an innocent party to suffer for us, is somehow moral and good.

    Nice that no legal system in the world will agree with you or your satanic views.

    Then again, when you adore a genocidal piece of garbage and call it good, -----

    Regards
    DL
     
  10. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Show scriptures that say god can die.

    Remember that if a sacrifice does not stay dead, it is technically not a sacrifice. It is giving 3 days of R & R.

    Regards
    DL
     
  11. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I would also question the Original Sin concept and our guilt by species.

    Christians sing that Adam's sin was not only a happy fault showing itself in man, but also that sin is necessary to Yahweh's plan.

    Christians like the apocalyptic plan of their demiurge piece of garbage and genocidal, --- yet good, --- god.

    Regards
    DL
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  12. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    No, one isn't absolved of responsibility at all. The problem is, you aren't willing to make even the first act of responsibility to atone for your life. You're just mad because it is a requirement and you know it. That's why all this desperate fury from you. You push it away with your words, but you know that it will all come to pass. It is essentially about how we live our lives. Is that such a problem?
     
  13. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    The problem is you thinking a genocidal prick of a god can be a good judge whose verdict you respect, even as you do not know which of your sins condemned you.

    Pathetic moral coward with an immoral double standard is what I see.

    One who would let another be punished in his steed.

    Regards
    DL
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is another problem - I call it - the "Free Pass" argument - but it is my argument.

    The "Faith Alone Crowd" which claim's only "Faith" is needed - "Just believe in the Sacrifice - and you are saved" - does however only represent the Protestant portion of Christianity .. Orthodox and Catholic still retain a deeds requirement to pass through the pearly gates.

    Not sure what these other groups are thinking though - as who does not want a free pass - Sign me up ! That Jesus guy !? - good fellow - thanks for the free pass - can do what ever I like.

    The fundamentalist then cry's - stop - Hold on - If someone confesses Christ - devotes his life to Jesus - they will not do bad things.

    I say - OK - but giving my life to Christ is not the requirement - I only need believe that there was this nice fellow named Jesus - who had some pull with the Big Guy - and some claim was in fact the Big Guy - gave me a free pass for merely believing that this Jesus fellow did indeed have pull with the Big Guy.

    So no worries - that is the only thing required .. not all this other gibberish these Fundamentalists tout .. Jewish law - and all that.

    And in fact - if you follow the teachings of Jesus - you need not worry about this nonsense either - not that this matters because I have a free pass.

    but - even if I was not to have a free pass - I still don't need all that other nonsense. Only need to follow one rule - says Rastafa HeyZeus -

    Same Rule as Rabbi Hillel Teacher of Jesus gave us when asked to sum up the Torah -

    "Don't do to others what you hate - the rest is all commentary - now go and Learn" says the Rabbi

    Jesus - "Don't do to others what you don't want done to you" - "This Rule Sums up the Law and the Prophets" Matt 7:12

    So if ye be worried that yer pass is not that secure - your faith not as strong as those Pious Fundies - just follow the Golden Rule.

    Buddha - Confucius - Hammurabi's law Code - and subsequently Jewish Law code and the near east in general - even Muhammad stated this rule - so there may be hope for Muslim's too ! - even if their faith is weak

    So while ye be on this vacation - follow this rule - and life is going to go better in any case - so there is little downside - cause even if God not going to punish you for Bad deeds .. someone down here on Earth might .. and that does not make vacation much fun.
     
  15. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    God gave us our lives which we did not deserve nor could we do for ourselves, and we accepted it. Then he gave his own life that we might be saved, offering it as a gift of which we neither deserve nor can we do for ourselves. Is it so strange to be reborn when at first we were born and accepted the gift. And is it really so alien to lay down and put away our sins for God when he has put away and lain down his life for us. And when we put away and lay down our sins for God because of his request, aren't we really laying down our sins for ourselves. Is it offensive that a Father command his children to cease their mischief? Is such a Father evil? Is it evil for a Father to love his children and to have principles to impart to them, that his treasures be their inheritance? The work and glory of God is the immortality and eternal life of man.
     
  16. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    We go to elementary school, Junior High and High School, then on to college for Bachelors, Masters and all the way to Doctorate, even doubling up advanced degrees on different topics. All the while learning, embracing, and practicing the words and concepts taught. But if you say to a person to put away sinful conduct and live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, and they look at you like you have just spoken the strangest concept they've ever heard.
     
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  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Donor

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    So true...... in my own case my thoughts have been so messed up over my sixty one years that I can't seem to imagine my thoughts ever becoming trutly in line with love toward my Creator... .and all of my fellow human beings........ .but I have to say that 2020 was the best year of my life so far for making what seems to me to have been significant progress...........

    I listened to twenty online courses by near death experiencer Dr. Kevin Zadai in 2020 and it sure seems like the way that he prays for his students has had a positive effect on my thoughts....... I am kind of amazed really......!
     
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  18. it's just me

    it's just me Banned

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    You have to read the WHOLE Bible, especially the Psalms, to see the New Testament in the old. In my lectionary you read through the Psalms once a month and it changes your whole perspective.
     
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  19. it's just me

    it's just me Banned

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    I would really like to know how you arrived at that last sentence, and I don't think you can tell me.
     
  20. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    I would try my best to tell you....but you have made it clear that anything I say is dung.
    So why would I wish to waste any more of your time......
     
  21. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus died for your sins ... you're a sinner. What else?
    [This was religious satire].
     
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  22. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Do you not have a mother and father? Did god ride your fathers dick that day?

    Thanks for beginning with a lie though.

    Prove your statement or admit your lie.

    Regards
    DL
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  23. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I do not mind being a sinner, given that Christians sing that Adam's sin, and by association, our sins, are a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

    Sin as to keep Yahweh's plan on track is their advice.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  24. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Dung is good to those who think it kosher to wash in the blood of Jesus.

    Sick minds abound, but let's be quiet and let Christians eat their Jesus and drink his blood.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  25. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Jesus preach a rejection of the organized religions and temples. He was against public displays of virtue. He said to pray closeted and in private.

    His key phrasing is shown when he said that the Sabbath was created for man and not man for the Sabbath when he would not condemn those who worked on the Sabbath. One can extrapolate from that that he would also say that religions and gods were created for us and not us for them.

    We are to use and abuse the gods we have invented and not allow them to abuse us.

    Regards
    DL
     

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