If killing your baby was acceptable, would more women do it?

HUH? Why would I want to do that and what does that have to do with the post of mine you quoted....all I did was point out

your quote :""""its the woman's body and she not only owns her body """"


and how YOU have stated that many times.....

 

Oh right so every single judge, every single government, every single scientist, every single medical professional is pro-choice, they must be as they are the ones who have "re-defined" humanity, and have they really or is it more the case of the more we understand about the human race the more we cannot pigeon hole it into a single entity.

Just as every fascist government has used emotional force to enslave certain members of the population, and pray do tell how abortion is genocide;

Genocide
"The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group."

Abortions are carried out on women of different national, race, religion and ethnic groups .. unless you are saying fetuses are somehow their own separate group.

Yep they are human beings, no disagreement there, and as an English "expert" you know they are wrong referring to them as "babies" .. just because something keeps being said doesn't make it true, fetuses are not babies.

You look at the genetic material of skin and its the same as a 5 year old .. what is your point?

Of course there are other ways to consider it, just like you call other human beings teenagers, or "babies" . still human beings of course.
You are wrong of course, the people who fight for abortion fight for the females right to have control over her own body, and as has been said here so many times, if you really want to cut abortion rates then fight for better sex education, better birth control .. that is the ONLY proven way to reduce abortion.
People deny the right to life for other people every single day, the US alone is currently involved in 4 wars - Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan & Libya . .tell me do only soldiers die in these wars.

Tell you what you stop the lie that pro-life is only about "saving" the unborn and not tied into trying to re-introduce an archaic rules system based on a fairy tale that demeans women and you might get somewhere.

 

A later term abortion does not deny her the rights to her body at all unless she was forced to have one against her will.

 

The reasoning is not flawed first of all because fetuses are not yet considered persons under the law and a woman choosing an abortion is making a responsible choice for herself.

 

Divorce rates in the USA had been increasing for a long time before 1963 - 1.5 divorces per 1,000 marriages in 1923 up to 2.2 per 1,000 marriages in 1962, 3.4 divorces per 1,000 marriages in 2009.

Number of marriages & divorces by state - http://www.census.gov/compendia/sta...arriages_divorces/marriages_and_divorces.html

You can look at the pdf or download the excel file and see for yourself .. top line gives for the whole of the US. (figures are shown from 1990-2009)

So what is your point.

Number of unmarried mothers in 1962 - 2.7% of all births
Number of unmarried mothers in 2004 - 27% of all births
... however as of 2004 Women who were in stable but non-married relationships, who gave birth to babies out of wedlock, and who still live with the baby’s father as of the child’s 5th birthday
50-55% : Whites
50-55% : US-born Hispanics
35-40% : Blacks

so while the increase looks bad, it is by no means an indication of anything "wrong". The stigma of being an unmarried mother has basically been removed from society (rightfully so), thus enabling women to make the choice of having children while not married

 

If you advocate a pro-life stance then by the very nature of the meaning of pro-life you should hold all life to the same standard, the fact that you find it ok for a woman who knows she will give birth to a DS child should be forced to continue the pregnancy on the slightest chance the doctors may be wrong, and then when its born with the expected DS kill it .. is disgusting.

 

so on that comment you must fight just as hard to ban the death penalty, ban all wars and ban all life support machines being turned off as you do to try and ban abortion.

To point yes it is, it is independent in its ability to process air in its lungs in order to oxygenate its blood, it is independent in its ability to convert food into energy in order to sustain its system.
It doesn't fulfill the full range of sentience, but it does have the power of sense perception or sensation - conscious
Legally at birth it is a person . .I know you don't agree with that happening at birth, but as it stands that is the law.

If the child were left alone, ANYONE can care for it.. while in the womb can that still happen?

As you well know my answer to this is yes .. to the point of viability, once the fetus reaches the point where it can survive outside of the womb then IMO the fetus should have all the rights associated with being a born person.

Now I wait for the usual "hypocrite" screeching from you.

 

Flawed - There are no "children" in abortion.

Yes, that's a born person, not a fetus.

You really should add "in my opinion" otherwise you comment comes over as being fact, which it isn't.

 

Whoa now, I never said it was okay to kill a fetus. Its not right on my morality scale. But people should have the right to choose wrong. And I will fight for people to be able to choose that. Everyone deserves that. Once the government starts taking those kind of choices away things get dangerous.

- - - Updated - - -

I do. You are absolutely right. But every single person on earth has the right to choose that wrong.

 

No, I advocate for a pro-good-quality-of-life stance. DS infants will not lead a good quality life. Same thing with elderly suffering and dying from terminal illness.

It's not so much that I am "pro-life", I am just against the selfish stealing of innocent life for another's personal convenience and sexual gratification. Hope that clears things up for you.

 

"""Until it is, whether you wanted or planned for it or not, it's your responsibility"""


Yup, and NOT YOURS!

So the woman is free to do with it what she wants and what is legal.

 

Who told you that women get "sexual gratification" from abortions? You must have gotten that from churchmouse. Anyway, that is not the purpose for abortions, nor the result. You seem a little confused, you see the sexual gratification sometimes results in abortion, but abortion doesn't cause sexual gratification.

 

So who determines good-quality-of-life, you?
How do you know DS infants will not lead a good quality life?
Haven't the elderly gained enough throughout their lives in order to live what is left in peace, without someone trying to get rid of them?
What is your benchmark for a good-quality of life, the one you lead, the one Richard Branson leads, the one a child starving leads and finally how can you predict what quality of life a fetus will have?

But you are happy to selfishly steal the life from a DS infant, the old or those who are terminally ill .. even though they have legally more right to life than the fetus.
Yep it clears it up nicely .. you only want to save those that won't hurt your pocket.

 

It's pro-choicers who think a baby should be aborted because otherwise he would grow up in poverty.

Sounds to me like you might be projecting your own insecurities about abortion.

 

Please provide evidence that I have ever said I think fetuses, not babies, should be aborted because they would grow up in poverty .. as you have been shown on numerous occasions not one single "baby" has ever been killed in an abortion.

I have absolutely no insecurities about abortion, you on the other hand would seem to have insecurities about your own pocket.

Now would you care to answer the other points?

 

""It's pro-choicers who think a baby should be aborted because otherwise he would grow up in poverty."""


No, a fetus should be aborted if the woman wants it abroted according to law.

A reason, and a good reason, may be that she is too poor to raise it and realizes she can't afford to raise it.


You are so confused and those porno/pervert movies you watch aren't helping...

 

Yes, she owns her body...but if she becomes pregnant she should not be allowed to kill the life already started.
I play devils advocate to catch pro-aborts in the hypocrisy of their position.

If the woman owns her body...then she cant lose rights to it. Therefore if she is pregnant...no one should be able to deny her an abortion at any time during the pregnancy. But we have a lot of hypocrites on this site...who think viability matters. They do the same thing they say I should not be able to do.

 

Well if anyone should know what hypocrisy means it's a woman who had an abortion and now wails and screams against them and the women who have them....

But I don't see any hypocrisy with the Pro-Choicers, just difference of opinion....I believe a woman has a right to an abortion until the law says the fetus is viable. She should have the right to abort at anytime if her life is in danger or the fetus is abnormal in any way.

Some Pro-Choicers may have a different OPINION but that doesn't make anyone a hypocrite...

 

So you have never changed your mind or position about anything? Ever. Who here has never changed their mind or position on something? Hell Obama just changed his position on gay marriage.....would you bash him like you do me about changing positions. LOL

But you pro-aborts love to paint the scarlet letter on me...you know label me...and you have no clue about any of this....your a pretender. Assume is all you can do. I think the problem here is...your all jealous I have had one and you haven't. You all love abortion so much...and you know that you don't know anything about it...you pretend.

Your position is the height of hypocrisy. It is not solid and you know it.

Answer this.

Is a woman's body her own? yes or no
Should she have the right to determine what is done with it? yes or no
Is it hypocritical to allow her the rights to her body and then take it away? yes or no
If no, then expain why?

 

Sure, I changed my mind but I didn't run around all wild eyed and hysterical accusing other people of being murderers...anyone who does that is NUTS!...


"""""But you pro-aborts love to paint the scarlet letter on me""""


No, YOU do that to yourself.




"""...you know label me...and you have no clue about any of this....your a pretender. Assume is all you can do"""""



Assume what, you said you had an abortion ...no one assumed anything about you




""". I think the problem here is...your all jealous I have had one and you haven't."""""


That is "around the bend looney tunes....or are YOU jealous of the women who now can have abortions and you can't??????




"" You all love abortion so much""""



Not so much that I ever had one...



""""...and you know that you don't know anything about it...you pretend. """




Blah blah blah, same old same old... ya forgot to include Scott Petersen in that post...

 

Fugazi said,

That is your right, but you are saying I don't have that right that I should shut up because at one time I thought differently. I am debating the issue here. How am I trying to FORCE anyone to think the way I do?

Funny that there are some in our government who are trying to change gun laws to protect people. Should they also just shut up because they once thought differently?

It's no scarlet letter to me...but to others they love to throw this at me. And ya know its not that they mention it...its how they do it. You know exactly what I am saying.

You are not an issue here...so says the pro-abort woman. You don't matter. You have no right to the child in the womb...none. I would think that they would wonder why you're hear debating this at all. The child in the womb is not yours....the DNA does not matter....you are a non issue.

That is how much I think this group loves abortion and the right to do it. REmember..its not human, and not a child until it takes its first breath, right? So whatever I did, the power I got....was nothing really. I didn't kill anything but a blob of tissue. Right? You think that way don't you? What did I do wrong? If there is nothing wrong with abortion....why on earth would you or anyone else feel sorry for me. I did nothing wrong.

Did you just attack me the person....? I think you did. You just questioned my mental state. I will ask a mod if that is ok. You don't mind do you?
Wish I could follow this statement but it is against the rules....attacking the person. If they tell me its a go.....I will be back to then to comment on yours.

Yes I made the decision and you support that decision. Do you support women who might want to kill in the ninth month...even if their health is not in danger? What degree do you think woman own their bodies? Because your position is all over the place on this.

It is solid. There are only two options.. to kill or not to kill. Both are fanatical? You said that abortion was not wrong, not bad. So what is so fanatical on both sides?

Don't you like to face this? LOL You have spewed your beliefs over and over on here as most of us have. We say the same things over and over...no one will ever change. And yet this line of questioning you don't seem to want to answer over again. I know why....its hypocritical.

Let me help you here. If a woman has the right to her own body....then she owns it until she dies. No one should be able to tell her what to do with it. It is separate from anything else...her decision. But some of you believe that she only owns the right to her body SOME OF THE TIME. You take her right away....Why? You base it on YOUR SENSE OF MORALITY AND BIAS. The fact is by denying her a late term abortion....YOU TAKE HER RIGHT AWAY. You are anti-woman in this sense...because you want to control her...body and mind.

QUESTION: What right do YOU have to take her rights away? We are not talking about the blob of tissue in the womb as you call it. We are only talking about HER, THE WOMANS RIGHTS.

 

Oh you finally caught on about Peterson did ya? Good that is progress...because the jury named that child....and they gave Connor personhood. That I am sure is a disapointment for you.

 

If you want people to stop questioning your personal intentions/motives or whatever about your own abortion then you should stop bringing it up and stop making every single topic all about you and how YOU feel.

I did notice one user who managed to avoid talking about you every time you brought up yourself, Shiva TD worked right around that and generalized his statements so as not to make it all about you, that is how we should address your posts from now on when you want to make it all about yourself. We just have to generalize it or ignore you.

 

Are you hallucinating?? I never stated an opinion about Scott Petersen in that post...he's YOUR OBSESSION.

And how neatly you ignored all the rest...that means "obsession".

 

Do you support the numerous items currently awaiting state or national decisions on restricting abortions?
Do you campaign on behalf of the pro-life stance
Do you offer unbiased advice to the women seeking abortion or do you place your bias in the forefront of that help, if you do any of these then you are actively trying to force your opinions onto others.
This this a debating forum and as such the chances of you changing someones opinion (especially on this subject) is almost nil, but this forum doesn't influence state or federal decisions (or even the individual that much) and as such what you say here is as irrelevant as what I say in the bigger scheme of things.
When have I ever told you to shut up .. never have, never will.

apart from being off topic and irrelevant, you answer your own question "there are some in our government", that is there job, they are there to represent the people .. if you were elected to state or national government then the same would apply to you.

I readily admit that I said things in a way I shouldn't have, which in hindsight was wrong of me ..

As far as the individual is concerned you are right, its their choice .. what I try to do is to stand against those who would remove the freedom of choice from others and to dispel the lies and myths projected by the more zealous pro-life people. I know that no matter what I say here it will have little or no influence of the woman who is making the decision to abort or not .. But I am not trying to influence her decision in any way.

A position that it not human before it takes its first breath has never been one I support, and you know that.
The sympathy is not for the decision you made, it is for the effect it is having on you now .. and no I don't think you killed a "blob of tissue", you aborted a fetus, I am not condemning you for making that choice neither should you condemn others for making the same choice.

Nope I didn't attack you personal, I expressed concern at your mental state and the effect that state has on my sympathy for you, and if you wish to ask a MOD then please do so, if I have broken a rule then I am ok with accepting a MODS decision on it.

you may respond in anyway you feel, I don't have the problem of running to the MODS every time someone says something about me, I am a little more mature than that.

Your decisions was up to you, and you know my position on late term abortions, but as I've said before your position is at the extreme end of the abortion debate.
My position is only "all over the place" in your fanatical world of extreme, to the majority my position is pretty normal.

No there are not only two options, you may see it that way but that is your opinion.

It is only hypocritical in your view, the majority (as has been shown by numerous polls) are closer to my stance than yours and if necessary I am more than happy to post my own personal position again, though I can't really see the point as you know full well what it is.

Nothing to do with bias or morality, its based in scientific fact .. a fetus after 21 weeks has a chance of functioning outside of the womb, in my opinion that renders it the same rights as a post birth baby, and, again in my opinion an abortion should only be performed in the event of a real medical danger to the mother or the fetus has a condition incompatible with life. Late term abortions as you well know are a very very small proportion of abortions performed and non are elective, you and all the other pro-lifers have NEVER been able to show this to be untrue.

I'll try to answer even though it starts with the premise that I think its a blob of tissue, which I don't.
Prior to 21 weeks we are talking about something that only has the potential to be a person, it can not survive outside of the womb and as such it should be the womans choice as to the outcome, after 21 weeks (IMO) the fetus, pretty much, has everything in place to be viable out side of the womb, this is no different to a number of other laws that allow individual choice up to a point.

To you my position is hypocritical, and that doesn't bother me in the slightest as I believe it is the position of the majority of people .. including a number of pro-life people.