I'm re-reading the Bible

What do you think about the Samson story where he kills a thousand soldiers with a donkey's jaw bone? Is such a thing even feasible? The Philistines must have been some real dummies and just walked up to Samson so that he could whack them upside their heads. Didn't they have any bows and arrows or long spears? Why didn't they throw rocks at Samson?

 

Don't get me wrong! I completely agree with you on this. But it doesn't address my quote that you posted. But yes, and I could give you many more cases of biblical impossibilities, especially in the OT, but obviously my quoted words in your post refer to the NT.

 

May I ask what you are looking for when it comes to 'Church' and Christianity? Are you looking for 'friends', for 'living ways', for 'guidelines', for 'suggestions',.... what is it that you don't seem to be finding?

 

Are you going to read the Apocrypha, or the Deuterocanonicals?

The Apocrypha consists of many different books (not sure if there is a definitive list). The Deuterocanonicals are a group of Bible books that the Catholic church accepts, but that Martin Luther took out of the Bible.

The Apocrypha include:

• Apocalypse of Abraham
• Apocalypse of Moses
• Letter of Aristeas
• Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah
• Joseph and Aseneth
• Life of Adam and Eve
• Lives of the Prophets
• Ladder of Jacob
• Jannes and Jambres
• History of the Captivity in Babylon
• History of the Rechabites
• Eldad and Modad
• History of Joseph
• Odes of Solomon
• Prayer of Joseph
• Prayer of Jacob
• Vision of Ezra

The Deuterocanonicals are :

• Tobit
• Judith
• Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4–16:24)[18]
• Wisdom (also called the Wisdom of Solomon)
• Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus)
• Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[19]
• Additions to Daniel:
  • Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24–90)
  • Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
  • Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
• 1 Maccabees
• 2 Maccabees
  
  

 

As a new Christian I did the Navigators Bible memory program. Read the Bible every single day and memorized scripture. Actually it was King James....but I don't talk like that, so I paraphrase automatically to my contemporary language. I understand why one needs to take a break from it once in a while. It has to soak in. There has to be everyday application and it takes time to reflect. I have viewed my own memorization efforts of the past as a "work of the flesh".... but I'll tell you, it certainly has paid off. I find Gods Word coming to mind often when I need it most!

 

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are you sure about that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible

 

But that does not make Yahweh's older instructions "timeless wisdom". How does the purple drapes on the Tabernacle apply to my life today? If you can answer that, I might be one step closer to understanding why you think the Bible as a whole is "timeless wisdom". If it does not apply to my life today, why must it be read from the church pulpit and not just in a library?

What do I want out of Church and Christianity? Honesty an transparency. I want my local church not to pretend the Apocrypha does not exist by including it in our Bibles AND once or twice a year acknowledge its existence in a sermon. I want church to be a forum on asking and discussing life's toughest questions and only very seldom say "I know" or "we know". I want the pastor to have the guts to say "perhaps not all scriptures are inspired by God"

I'm reading the Deuterocanonicals with some other books included in Eastern Orthodox Bibles which are:

1 Esdras

Prayer of Manasseh

Psalm 151

3 Maccabees

2 Esdras

4 Maccabees

 

The purpose of the Bible is to educate humanity about God, and to provide a path for a relationship with God. Those lessons are timeless. The lessons may be set in a society which is not familiar to you, but the lessons are still relevant.

Purple drapes? Really? Of all the world changing parts of the Bible, you want to base your decision on why there are purple drapes on the Temple? Not salvation, sin, honesty, helping the poor, slavery, the after life, but purple drapes?

The curtain in the Temple was made of blue, purple, and scarlet thread interwoven. Purple was the color of royalty, it was difficult to produce and very expensive. Spiritually, such investment in the Temple honors God. Individually, it is a sign of commitment and public profession of faith, a person does not invest his money and time in something he does not care about. In social terms, such an investment unites the people who made the investment, in the case of the Temple it served to unite the Jews. Those are all lessons in human psychology which are applicable today.

 

Wheres Enoch?

 

If you want to have some fun ask your minister what the Ten Commandments are, when the Apocrypha was deleted from the Bible, and who was behind the movement to remove it. Chances are he will be totally clueless.

 

Only because the Bible contains so many passages that I care absolutely nothing for. Most American Evangelical Christians would be horrified to hear how Thomas Jefferson took a scissors and cut out all the parts he cared nothing for from the Bible and left the parts he liked. Reading the Bible, I can see the wisdom in that.

That's only in the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible of the Oriental Orthodox denomination. Not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox church of the Russian and Greek tradition. I've read that one as a separate book from my NRSV Bible. There's also the book of Jubilees, 1,2 and 3 Meqabyan, and the book of Jasher. I will eventually find those as well and read them.

 

This is known as cherry picking, which is the best way to misinterpret the Bible:

"So Judas....went out and hanged himself.

With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

...So they picked up the pieces and filled twelve baskets...

Jesus told him "Go and do likewise."

 

If that's your conclusion before understanding the Bible, then that is intellectually dishonest. Any document should be read and understood, then an informed decision as to its relevance and accuracy should be made.

Many people pick and choose from the Bible, Jefferson did it, people in this forum do it, but that's not Christianity. Its simply each person creating their own personal religion.

The Jefferson "bible" is well known. Jefferson did far more than just cut out parts he did not like, he rearranged it as well. By editing and rewriting the Bible, Jefferson changed the Bible from a conversation between God and man into a document describing Jeffersons personal world view. The Jefferson book is not a Christian document.

 

Kinda like they did in Nicea?

 

No, not even close. There was no rewriting of the Bible at Nicaea, in fact a list of canonical books was not even created at Nicaea. The Old Testament long predates Nicaea. Most of the New Testament was accepted as cannon before Nicaea.

What is today the New Testament evolved over time, it was not created (and the books - which were in wide circulation - certainly were not edited) at Nicaea.

 

It would seem your interpretation disagrees with those who attended and those who studied it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

 

This is by the LDS on the apocrypha

Apocrypha
Secret or hidden. By this word is generally meant those sacred books of the Jewish people that were not included in the Hebrew Bible (see Canon). They are valuable as forming a link connecting the Old and New Testaments and are regarded in the Church as useful reading, although not all the books are of equal value. They are the subject of a revelation recorded in D&C 91, in which it is stated that the contents are mostly correct but with many interpolations by man. Among these books the following are of special value:

The First Book of Esdras. Contains an account of Josiah’s religious reforms and the subsequent history down to the destruction of the Temple 588 B.C. It then describes the return under Zerubbabel and the events that followed, of which we have another account in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. Esdras is another form of the name Ezra.

In Esdras 3:1–5:6 is a story that tells how Zerubbabel by his wisdom as page of Darius won the king’s favor and obtained permission to restore the captive Jews to their own country. This section is entirely independent of the canonical scriptures.

Of the date of the compilation of the book we know nothing save that its contents were known to Josephus (born A.D. 3.

The Second Book of Esdras. Contains seven visions or revelations made to Ezra, who is represented as grieving over the afflictions of his people and perplexed at the triumph of gentile sinners. The book is marked by a tone of deep melancholy. The only note of consolation is presented in the thought of the retribution that is to fall upon the heads of the Gentiles who have crushed the Jews. The references to the Messiah (7:28–29; 12:32; 13:32, 37, 52) deserve special notice. Many scholars feel the book was composed in the 1st century A.D.

The Book of Tobit. The story is briefly as follows: Tobit is a Jew of the tribe of Naphtali, living in Nineveh, a pious God-fearing man and very strict in the observance of the Jewish law. Trouble comes upon him, and he loses his eyesight. He sends his son Tobias to fetch ten talents of silver, which he had left in the hands of his kinsman Gabael who dwelt at Rages in Media. Tobias takes a traveling companion with him, who is in reality the angel Raphael. On the way they stop at Ecbatana and lodge at the house of one Raguel, whose daughter Sara has through the evil spirit Asmodeus been seven times deprived of husbands on the night of wedlock. Tobias on the ground of kinship claims her in marriage, and her parents grant consent. By supernatural means, with which Raphael had supplied him, he is able to expel the demon Asmodeus. During the marriage festivities the angel journeys to Rages and obtains the money from Gabael. Tobias and his wife then return to Nineveh; and by further application of supernatural means Tobias is able to restore his father’s sight. Raphael, having revealed his true nature, disappears. Tobit breaks forth into a song of thanksgiving. He and his family end their days in prosperity. The work’s general character seems to show that it was written in praise of a life spent in devout consistency with the Jewish law, even in a strange land.

The Book of Judith. Purports to describe a romantic event in the history of the Jews, that is, the murder of the Assyrian general Holofernes by Judith, a rich and beautiful widow of Betulia. The historical contradictions in the story, as well as its general character, leave us no reason to doubt that it is a work of fiction, in which perhaps some traditional deed of heroism in early days has been worked up.

The rest of the chapters of the Book of Esther. These chapters expand in greater detail the narrative of the canonical book. Their object is to illustrate the hearing of prayer and the deliverances from the Gentiles that God wrought for His people the Jews.

The Book of the Wisdom of Solomon. Written in praise of “Wisdom” and in condemnation of those who willfully rejected her. It purports to be addressed by the Israelite king Solomon to the kings and rulers of the earth. Many scholars feel it is of 1st century A.D.origin, in the Greek language. It shows traces of the influence of Greek philosophy. The most famous passages are those containing the description of “the righteous man” (4:7–1 and the picture of “Wisdom” (Wisdom 7–9).

The object of the book is to warn Alexandrian Jews against abandoning the religion of their fathers. The “Wisdom” of the book of Proverbs, “the fear of the Lord,” is asserted to be the basis of all true happiness.

The Wisdom of Jesus the son of Sirach, or Ecclesiasticus. This is the only book in the Apocrypha to which the name of the author can be assigned. In Ecclesiasticus 50:27 he speaks of himself as “Jesus the son of Sirach of Jerusalem.” We know nothing of him beyond what is told in the prologue to the book.

In style and character the book resembles the canonical book of Proverbs. The greater part is occupied with questions of practical morality. Some of the subjects discussed are friendship, old age, women, avarice, health, wisdom, anger, servants. The Song of Praise of the works of Creation (42:15–43:33) is a very powerful and beautiful composition, and the eulogy of the nation’s great men covers all of the Old Testament heroes, the omission of Ezra, Daniel, and Mordecai being remarkable.

The book was originally written in Hebrew and has come down to us in a Greek translation made by the author’s grandson, who prefixed to it a preface. This preface deserves special notice for its reference to the Jewish scriptures under the threefold title of “the Law, the Prophets, and the rest of the writings.” Some leaves containing about 23 chapters in Hebrew were discovered at Cairo in 1896.

The name Ecclesiasticus dates from the time of Cyprian (Bishop of Carthage, A.D. 248–5. It has no connection with Ecclesiastes.

The Book of Baruch. So called because it purports to contain a work written by Baruch, the prophet, in Babylon, in the fifth year after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Chaldeans. Most scholars feel that it was probably composed at a later date.

Attached to the Book of Baruch is the so-called Epistle of Jeremy, purporting to be a letter written by the prophet Jeremiah to the Jews who were being carried away captive to Babylon.

The Song of the Three Children. Purports to be the song sung by Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego (they are called Ananias, Azarias, and Misael in verse 66) in the midst of the burning, fiery furnace.

The History of Susanna. This story describes how Daniel as a young man procured the vindication of Susanna from a shameful charge, and the condemnation of the two elders who had borne false witness against her.

Bel and the Dragon. In this fragment we have two more anecdotes related of Daniel. In the first, Daniel discovers for King Cyrus the frauds practiced by the priests of Bel in connection with the pretended banquets of that idol. In the second we have the story of his destruction of the sacred dragon that was worshipped at Babylon. Both stories serve the purpose of bringing idolatry into ridicule.

The Prayer of Manasses, king of Judah. This is a penitential prayer built up, for the most part, of sentences and phrases taken from the canonical scriptures. There is little reason for giving it the title that it bears.

The First Book of the Maccabees. (See Maccabees.) The importance of this work for our knowledge of Jewish history in the 2nd century B.C. can hardly be surpassed. It recounts with great minuteness the whole narrative of the Maccabean movement from the accession of Antiochus Epiphanes (175) to the death of Simon (135). The persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes and the national rising led by the aged priest Mattathias, the heroic war of independence under the lead of Judas the Maccabee, and the recovery of religious freedom and political independence under Jonathan (160–143) and Simon (143–135) mark the chief divisions of the stirring period that the book chronicles.

The Second Book of the Maccabees. Deals with the history of the Jews during 15 years (175–160) and therefore goes over part of the period described in 1 Maccabees. It is inferior to that book both in simplicity and in accuracy because legends are introduced with great freedom. However, the doctrine of the Resurrection is strongly affirmed.

The books mentioned above taken together make up what is generally known as the Apocrypha. They are frequently printed along with the canonical scriptures. The Roman Church regards as part of the canon the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and the additions to Daniel and Esther. Besides these books, there are other Jewish apocryphal writings. The chief are the Psalms of Solomon, the Book of Enoch, the Apocalypse of Baruch, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Assumption of Moses, the Book of Jubilees, and the Sibylline Oracles.

 

I view Mormon sources very suspiciously. They have an 'Inspired Version' of the Bible (that the biggest LDS group don't even use today) where they omit the Song of Solomon and conveniently slip in a prophecy of Joseph Smith and many other outrageous 'corrections'.

But my suspicions aside, they neglect to address Psalm 151, 3 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees.

 

I being 79 and long a LDS shall have to make due with your scathing critique. I did not know you had such problems but believe me, i will manage just fine.

 

You really should read your links before posting them. From your own link:

There is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council.[77] The development of the biblical canon took centuries, and was nearly complete (with exceptions known as the Antilegomena, written texts whose authenticity or value is disputed) by the time the Muratorian fragment was written.[78]

The main source of the idea that the Bible was created at the Council of Nicaea seems to be Voltaire, who popularised a story that the canon was determined by placing all the competing books on an altar during the Council and then keeping the ones that did not fall off. The original source of this "fictitious anecdote" is the Synodicon Vetus,[80] a pseudo-historical account of early Church councils from AD 887:[81]
​

Nicaea did not rewrite or edit the Bible.

 

The point is does your minister know when those books were deleted from the Bible and who was behind it?

 

We do not have ministers. We are led in each ward by the Bishop. Funny how we and Catholics have Bishops. But ours is in charge of the church building and the members. Being in charge means he follows what the Church sets up in Utah. Each Ward has the same precise teachings on the same day. Each member can change Wards and still be on the same page. This is to ensure if Members move, they do not get lost.

I can ask about the apocrypha but lets dig up what I can on this topic.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/12/...osium-examines-apocryphal-literature?lang=eng

Why don't you read that given your interest and get it direct.

Here is the tail end to kind of summarize.

 

Except Catholic Bishops have succession all the way back to the apostles, and yours don't.

By the way, Catholic Bishops are in charge of their Churches, assisted by their Deacons and Priests, who are highly trained in the Liturgy and Sacraments. Being in charge means they follow what Christ set up 2000+ years ago, not what's going on in Utah. Each member of the Catholic Church can go anywhere in the world and the Mass will be the same, the teachings will be the same, and the readings will even be the same. You can go to a foreign language Mass and still know what's going on, no matter how small or how large the parish is.

 

I am not as familiar with Catholics as you appear to be. I mainly wanted to distinguish our Bishops. We have our teachings and they run like this about Catholics, no disrespect to them intended ...

Catholics were the original church of Jesus and over time came to so change the church that our church restored what the original Catholics had. So we replaced the Catholics. But they were original.