Iran deal- what each side won and lost

1. He did not win the Nobel Peace Prize for fixing the US economy. The Peace Prize is not awarded for economic initiatives. Secondly he was given the award before he was in office long enough to have done anything. In fact it was awarded in anticipation of what it was hoped he would do and clearly he did not do what it was hoped he would do. The world is further away from peace today then when he was elected. That is a fact,

2. How did he secure peace for generations to come? Do you have the special power to see the future?Are you another Nostradamus?

Can you get real. Get back to me when you actually read the agreement and can explain how an agreement that can not compel Iran to open its nuclear sites for inspection can guarantee anything?

Lol. Are you starting an Obama cult? You really worship him like that? For me its Dwayne the Rock Johnson, then the Undertaker. Let's get real.

 

No of course not. Money to finance terrorists will have flown back to Iran in the meantime.

 

While I respect your reasoning on a spiritual level, on a realistic or material level I believe the deal by not being able to mandate and guarantee inspections which is clear in the words of the agreement, has in fact institutionalized and legitimized avoiding inspections because of the wording in the agreement.

I believe Iran is the number one financier of terrorism across the world and so lifting sanctions necessarily will fuel an immediate financial increase in support to terrorists.

Therefore I believe while the theory behind the agreement was to achieve peace and better to try then not try, it was naïve, unrealistic and a fake exercise by Obama to serve as a notice to Iran that the US favours Iran over Israel in regards to ME foreign policy issues and has empowered Iranian sponsored terrorism and has made the world more unsafe.

I believe the problems in Iran are not lack of nuclear energy but a totalitarian extremist fanatical regime that exports terrorism worldwide and the poverty or hardships is the result of a regime that is dominated by Muslim clergy unable to understand econoy and so will continue to mismanage its funds and keep its people enslaved with feudal primitive fanatical beliefs.

Obama has appeaed totalitarianism and therefore enables it. So I respectfully disagree.

You know on another level I do not want anyone to have nuclear weapons but as a pragmatist I do not worry about say Israel, France, Brazil,the US, Britain, South Africa, China, India having them.I do worry about Russia, Pakistan, Iran and North Korea though. It is what it is.

To pretend Iran is a stable, peaceful country is ridiculous. Its people are trapped by tyranny.

I admit openly if there was a prop Western Iranian government modern in approach, nuclear capacity would not be an issue. Japan,South Korea,Canada,Argentina, Belgium,Holland, Australia, New Zealand,all could make a nuke weapon. No one loses sleep over their governmemnts blowing up the world in a war.

Israel had to come close twice because of Soviet attempts to prepare nuclear attacks against the . Israel got its arsenal to try offset Soviet nuclear attacks. The cold war expired. Israel never used its nuke weapons to threaten anyone. Iran already has. Its broadcast films showing Israel blowing up by nuke attack from them.

My biases are based on the regime now in control in Iran just as I worry about the instability in Pakistan or Russia.

Then again I believe Iran already has the capacity to use nuke and chemical weapons and what is happening beneath the rhetoric is anyone's guess.

The true agendas no one knows. If I am Israeli I would find the presumption of others telling them they should trust Iran like Silver Surfer a joke.

Its easy to tell someone to trust Iran when you live thousands of miles away from it.

I live next door to the US. It doesn't send in terrorists and missiles. I mean it sends in tourists but for the most part while they may be loud, they are good people. If I was living next door to Iran of course I would have a different opinion as to their having a nuke capacity.

Its reality.

 

If it were at a nuclear site, it would likely be more like how the leader is going to come have a tour of the site on such and such day and time, similar security issue. If you can no-notice show up to a restricted area just in general, you may come across classified material. In general, nations have a right to keep classified material away from the eyes of all other nations and even their own people who don't need to know. The perceived exception in this case is when it comes to whether their nuclear material is being used for power or weapons. Since the nations trying to keep Iran in check in this agreement believe they can detect suspected secret nuclear sites and prove it even after giving 24 days notice, they put this restriction in place so that America can't use the inspections as an excuse simply to spy on Iran in order to dismantle their government... again.

 

Well I am a Christian Zionist which is what it sounds like, ie a christian that supports the Zionist cause. Zionist meaning ie Jews having the 'right of return'. Ok the hissing is
noted.

What most people don't get for what ever reason is most Zionists are that because we really beleive our religion. We beleive in God and that the christian religion and the 'afterlife' as per scripture is more real than this short 70 or so year flash in the pan existence. That said I think you and others that dislike Israel and Christians etc may be confusing truth with Scaremongering. We simply minster the truth, its not scaremongering even if it is sometimes scary, even horrifying such as the specter of Armageddon. In the case of Israel and the Jews the truth is they have the right of return which is neither scary or scaremongering. That is the truth of Gods sovereign word. God bless this forum.

reva

 

so.....lemmme...get this straight. You think our master plan is to let Iran become a nuclear power.....so that we can gain access to their secrets so that we can one day dismantle the nuclear armed nation we just helped become a nuclear power?

And you dont see a flaw in that?

 

You really don't have it straight, probably because I'm explaining the reasoning behind the deal while simultaneously not believing a deal was necessary in the first place.

My position: Iran should be treated like any other nation, and allowed to develop or not develop nukes. Our goals should be to monitor it covertly, and diplomatically make it very clear to them that if they develop a nuke and Israel ends up getting nuked by it, they will be held accountable and they will pay dearly for it. We need to be willing, and make sure they know we're willing, to commit genocide against them if they commit genocide against Israel. This is how nukes have always been treated after WWII and it is why America and Russia did not destroy each other.

My explanation of the treaty: They believe they can identify and confirm any possible undeclared nuclear activity to hold Iran accountable to the deal, suspending sanctions so long as Iran complies. The reason the deal was not anytime/anywhere, is because all nations have a right to secrets, just not nuclear secrets in Iran's case.

 

I find no record of that actually being said where the story hasn't been debunked.

The primary article was a quote by Ahmadinejad misquoting something Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said.

But, the correct translation from Persian of what Khamenei actually said was that Israel would collapse - not be blown up.

Iran was poorly served by Ahmadinejad, whose bombastic pronouncements targeted an internal audience and were meant to incite, but incited those outside Iran to their detriment. And, he was voted out.

We certainly have plenty of honest disagreements with Iran, but it is a big mistake on our part to sucker for the ridiculous remarks of someone like Ahmadinejad. We need to be at our best, carefully analyzing our opportunities for improving the situation.

 

And if we dont have unfettered access to the nuckear facilities how are we supposed to know they arent hiding anything?

 

I'm not a nuclear physicist, so I can't independently validate what Obama has claimed. However, he and others for the deal have stated that Iran would not be successful in operating a clandestine site without being detected even if the inspection didn't happen for 24 days after suspicion arose. Just using common sense, I can imagine that they could move some of the nuclear material in that time period, but probably could not eliminate all evidence of its use as a nuclear site unless they actually destroyed the site. Something that suspicious would likely be a breech of the treaty.

 

Obama is a certified liar and nothing he says can be trusted. Until we get full access this is a cluster f!#/

 

I'm not sure about that. Pretty sure he never actually provided the certificate.



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Perhaps you should actually read up on the details as it appears that you think that a nuclear weapons installation can be set up and then moved in 24 days without detection. Any site under suspicion will be closely watched by satellite including any transport of any infrastructure.

 

What you just stated is absurd and I will take the time to try explain what Alpha and others have been stating not that they need my words. Can you please read the agreement. The agreement is defective precisely because it contains no mechanism for verification of Iranian compliance and here is why;

1-Iran has up to 14 days to weigh the requests of International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors. If it decides to object, its objections then are relayed to an arbitration committee that would have 7 days to rule. If it rules against Iran, Tehran would have another 3 days to arrange an inspection.

This gives Iran up to 24 days to move, hide or destroy materials sought by inspectors.

2-You are absolutely and utterly wrong that it takes more than 24 days to hide nuclear capacity. You fabricated that. It takes hours not days.

3-Can you explain how a satellite is able to detect undergound actiivites which is there the Iranian nuclear sites are. Well? Did you even think before you wrote that one?

4- Explain to me let alone Alpha when will the inspectors get into suspect sites? Iran has a total of 24 days to delay any set of inspections. While it may take more than 24 days to scrub clean a massive underground enrichment facility, you need to get real and understand just how much a illicit nuclear activity Iran could hide within 24 days before you act like a nuclear inspection expert.

5-Next read the agreement and tell us all what exactly are the consequences for Iranian violations? Well? As it stands now there is reference to the same penalty for any infraction, big or small - wait for it- taking Iran to the UN Security Council for the "snapback" of international sanctions.

Snapback. Talk about meaningless words. Go on tell us all then what is a snapback.

You have a clue? Well what does "snapback" mean in practice because when Kerry was asked to explain it he studdered, choked and changed the topic.

Think about it. What does it mean for the UN Security Council to "order" a reimposition of sanctions. which is what the idiot Kerry referred to snapback as being.

There's no snapback. Read it. Both Kerry and Obama deliberately lie about it. What it means is if the Iranian sanctions are but back up all the funds that flowed up to that point are are still flowing are in fact grandfathered and immune from sanctions.

Read the agreement. It means today as we speak a stampede of state-to-state and private sector contracts are now being readied and will be drafted to shield these businesses when dealing with Iran from the impact of possible reimposition of sanctions, which renders the snapback exercise meaningless, absolutely meaningless.

Snapback my ass. The agreement actually includes a statement that states Iran has declared that a reimposition of sanctions will free it from all commitments and restrictions under the deal.

This means in practice Iran has a free pass on violations. You think the UN will snap back anything risking alienating all the business deals that will now be made? Get real.

This agreement in fact rollbacks all "nuclear-related" sanctions -- whether imposed by the United Nations, the European Union or the United States and so this will include all energy, financial, transportation and trade sanctions.

Go find out the huge list of people and companies whose assets will now be "unfrozen" who Obama is catering to.

That is what this is about. Go look up who is lining up to do business with Iran. Its not the Iranian people. They won't see a penny of the money.

Read the agreement and explain to me why the countries who signed it are now prohibited from "re-introducing or re-imposing the sanctions" whatever the hell that means and it states further.... are also banned from "imposing discriminatory regulatory and procedural requirements in lieu of the sanctions and restrictive measures covered by the [agreement]."

What kind of bullcrap wording is that? Read it. It means the U.S. neen committed by Obama to not being ale to apply sanctions against Iran because of its terrorist activities and human rights violations not just nuclear behaviour.

Obama has told out Iranians in favour of their tyranical government.

This is precisely why the Iranian government and its extremist supporters are cheering. Listen to their media. They are cheering because they now believe they are the only country in the world against whom a long list of penalties can never be applied for any crime it may do. It is written that way and its a travesty Obama has given Iran the green light to continue funding terrorism and human rights violations.

Its even worse then that. On top of refraining from penalizing Iran for terrorism and human rights crimes, the U.S. now is committed to assist Iran to develop in energy, finance, technology and trade.

The message? The US will help Iran grow stronger. What message does that send to the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain and Israel? Well it can't be any clearer-Obama is giving them all the finger.

The message could not be clearer-Obama is on his way out seeking revenge and giving the finger not just to Israel but the entire Sunni Muslim world for refusing to do his bidding.

This agreement enables and empowers Iran and for what? What benefit does the US get? Just what corporations are going to benefit? You better ask that question because Obama is trying to commit the US long term to an alliance with Iran and trying to tie the hands of future Presidents.

As expected Clinton is singing her praises of this agreement. Its her swan song.

Obama can veto congress but the American people will not stand for this agreement and reject it through their rejection of Clinton whose hitched her sail to Obama's failed foreign policies she helped build and was too late in trying to distance herself from.

The Democrats are going to lose many votes from disgruntled unemployed Americans and loyal Americans who are fed up with his selling the world out let alone the US.

 

I see....so we were all better off leaving things as they were....Got It.

 

If thats then you shouldnt be worried at all about our unfettered access then should you?

 

If you were a Christian as you claim to be, you wouldn’t be supporting a slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Christians in Iraq and Syria.
The United States of America betrayed Christians in the Middle East. Sunni radical Muslims, which are supported by the USA, slaughter Christians with impunity. I’m absolutely disgusted with so called Christians in the USA.

SAUDI ARABIA'S CHRISTIAN-KILLING MACHINE
http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/saudi-arabias-christian-killing-machine/

Global Slaughter of Christians, but America’s Churches Stay Silent

Christians are being singled out and massacred from Pakistan to Syria to the Nairobi shopping mall. Kirsten Powers on the deafening silence from U.S. pews and pulpits.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...tians-but-america-s-churches-stay-silent.html

Average American, European or Brit is much more likely to be killed by a Sunni Muslim sponsored by Saudi Arabia than an Iranian. All those beheaded Americans, Brits, Europeans were beheaded by Sunni Muslims, not Iranians.
Iranians don’t threaten Christians, Iranians don’t slaughter Christians. Saudis do. I view Saudis as much bigger threat to the western world than Iranians. Sunni radicals are terrorizing Europe, not Iranians.

Who am I going to take more seriously?

Half-educated dimwits who speak out of their backsides or highly educated people like Prof. Uzi Even, a physics professor at Tel Aviv University who actually served as a scientist at the Dimona reactor? I'm sure you are familiar with what was going on at the Dimona reactor.

 

I think that may be a bit too simplistic, as it equates "war" with a shooting conflict. And war may entail much more than that.

For instance, the Iranian government's detention (and imprisonment) of American hostages--while it giddily chants, "Death to America!"--is certainly a form of war, it seems to me...

 

Iran Won!

With sanctions lifted, even if reimposed, Iran has the chance to "stock up".
The only "verify" is full, open access - "verify".
That is not the case.

Don't fret, remember, Pakistan has "the bomb"
and ample Islamist crazies ready to take over Pakistan.
​

[video=youtube;SGptO6j3G-U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGptO6j3G-U[/video]



Moi

r > g

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I don't think the point is that they cannot move most or even all of the nuclear material in that time. I think the point is that they could not hide the fact that it was a nuclear facility in that time.

That's just what the deal-makers such as Obama have been saying. I am guessing Obama is just parroting what whoever advises him on the subject told him, because it's not his area of expertise either, hopefully somebody with expertise in nuclear weapons manufacturing. The point was to find a deal that would allow Iran to trade with the world and develop nuclear capacity for power like they said but without developing a bomb.

No that's for undeclared sites. Iran has 24 days for undeclared sites that are not supposed to exist. Obama has literally said 24/7 of known, declared sites. I suppose he could be lying, but I don't think he could get away with a lie that brazen.

Sure, at a minimum, unless we also agreed to never invade or bomb them no matter what they do. I don't think that's part of the agreement.

Reinstitution of previous sanctions that have been hurting Iran's economy.

Okay, but they were still slowed down by the deal, which I would be pissed about if I were a leader of Iran and wanted nuclear power to improve the economy. But obviously if you're getting sanctions because you're seeking nuclear power, getting rid of the sanctions would be the priority for economic prosperity.

Psh, whatever. If their violation is dire enough we'll rape them up the arse with a missile of our own for all the agreement says. A paper shield and a UN agreement won't save them if they mess up, especially if somebody more hawkish than Obama ends up in the whitehouse.

We shouldn't have had the sanctions in the first place. It was wrong and arrogant of us to put sanctions of them. Iran, like any nation, has a right to develop nuclear power AND/OR nuclear weapons.

Let them win their own freedom.

It's not our job to stop human rights violations in other countries, especially when the people will just hate us more when we try (Iraq, Afghanistan).

Good, maybe their standard of living will improve. It'll all trickle down I'm sure.

They deserve it. They want us to destroy Iran on our dime so they are in a better position.

Good. It would be nice if we didn't constantly slap them hoping they'll do something stupid and give us cause to kill more muslims, making the muslims hate us more and wasting hundreds of billions of dollars.

Only if it goes bad.

They don't understand what's going on and shouldn't be consulted for making decisions about things they don't understand.

 

Do you really think that Obama drew up the agreement?. Do you really think that no American nuclear weapons experts were involved in drawing up the agreement?

 

It's actually worse, any american/western attempt to slap sanctions on Iran for any reason will immediately de-facto (and possibly de-jure) nullify this nuclear treaty and Iran will feel free of any obligations. In essense aside from the nuclear development Iran can now resort to absolutely any criminal terrorist illegal activities and the west will be impotent to apply any kind of pressure for the fear that Iran will proceed with their nuclear program. The West had one trump card and it squandered it.

Sanctions take months/years to start working and hurting the economy (according to Obama actually). Iran will be prepared, flush with money and stockpiles of goods it may need during the sanctions. It will cancel inspections, make a dash for the nukes and it will be all over before sanctions are restored, let alone start hurting.

 

I believe you may be forgetting or ignoring a few things...Like Israel and many other nations (including the U.S.) that would have no problem "reminding" Iran that it should not be stupid. I doubt Iran has forgotten how close they are to being attacked from multiple sources.

 

No. Iranians drew the agreement, Obama and his experts just went along with it.

 

If the fear of a military attack is the only thing that will be restraining empowered, sanction-free, swimming in money Iran going forward, what was the point of making this deal and removing the sanctions? Lest we forget that Iran will undoubtedly use the finanicial windfall to significantly beef up and modernize its defensive and offensive military capabilities and once it's confident and comfortable enough, then it will renege on the deal.