Islam & Christianity the same tradition ?

I was a believer for 29 years, a fundamental Baptist in my later years. I know how to argue the case for the faith. And even as an atheist now, I still believe Christianity (the Calvinist variety, anyway) is good for society and made America the greatest nation on earth.

But what's your story? If you reject the teachings of the Catholic church, why are you defending works as a requirement of salvation? Two atheists arguing over Christian doctrine has to be the silliest thing ever.

 

You mean it tried to emulate Islam at one point.

 

Christians say to strike off their heads, too. At similar times, the west sent crusaders to strike off the heads of the nonbelievers in the name of Christ. Christians carried out a number of inquisitions that were aimed at striking off the heads (or burning alive) those who didn't believe.

The Bible claims that the god of the Jews brought punishment on the Jews at several points in ancient history.

Humans have always been horrible about justifying their actions. Even in America we've seen people actually think that we should be in a religious war!!!

They haven't reject either one.

The Messiah of the CHRISTIANS is interpreted by Christianity as carrying out a promise to ALL people. Yes, he was a Jew.

I don't understand your various points AT ALL unless you are suggesting that GOD is a racist.

We need to separate these issues a little better and be consistent about how we judge those of the ancient past as well as those of the present day.

 

The problem is that you are speaking of what people of a religion did,
as though the religion ordered them to do it.
There is a lot of blood at the doorsteps of Christianity,
But none of it is ordered by the church.

In Islam, the religion itself orders the crimes.

 

Actually there were significant periods during which military advancement of the west allowed the west to slaughter people in the ME.

I don't see ANY evidence that there was some "side" that overall was more moral or legitimate in any way. It's easy to pick specific cases. But, that doesn't form a legitimate argument.

 

The "church" didn't order the crusades, the inquisitions, the killing even of protestants, let alone Jews and Muslims?

You can't really separate the "people" and the "religion" so easily as you suggest in your first sentence. Even in cases where the church didn't directly and independently of the people order a specific act, a church that rules the people had every opportunity to stop the act - especially when it was large enough to be notable hundreds of years later and required significant governmental support.

 

"The church" was a bad choice of words.
I meant "the religion".
Most of the BS happened when few people had bibles and even less could read, and were at the mercy of what their preachers told them God wants.

It couldn't happen again because anyone can read their bibles.

Islam, however is different.
The religion spells it out in black in white, who is to be robbed and killed.
who is to be enslaved.
Who is to pay for their life.

Fully documented.

 

If that were true, you could detect it in mainstream Islam. You could detect it in Muslims in America and other western countries.

But, it's not there.

Yes, there are criminal radicals in this world. But, claiming that comes from mainstream Islam or any other religion doesn't work. There are lots of reasons for radicalization. For example, Christians in Ireland were motivated to terrorism against England.

Obviously, Christianity doesn't have any intent to promote terrorism - but it happened anyway, and it didn't take conditions that are ANYWHERE CLOSE to what particular people have been experiencing in other parts of the world.

 

That's not correct,
I have read the Qur'an and most of the sunnah, and there are literally thousands of verses depicting violence.
In Muhammeds biography, 80% of the writings, open to any page, has Muhammed robbing, raping or killing someone.

However most muslims are confined to the Qur'an which contains little information on Islam, and are discouraged from reading about muhammed.

Another twist. the writings of muhammed were fine for 1000 years as islam marched through Europe, asia, and India on robbing and killing sprees, however this stuff is too gross for 21st century behavior.
So the writings are being re-written, as absolute lies of course, to change the flavor.

 

Even the Islamic websites you go to for information about Muhammed are total bullsh-t.
Al Islam is a prime example.

You will read a flowery story about Muhammed, but there are no references to quotes from the actual sources.
That's because it is all made up.

If you want to go to a site that uses actual quotes, you have to go to what the whiners refer to as Islam hating sites.
But these sites will give you the actual documentation which you can easily look up.

and the actual documentation is nasty beyond belief.

 

None of which were authorized or called for by Jesus or Paul. Don't confuse the religion with the religious. Islam, on the other hand, calls specifically for striking off the heads of the nonbelievers. In their case, their religious people are following their religion when they kill people.

It never claims that God decided to destroy them all. You're also confusing post hoc explanations for why the Jews suffered with calls for their future elimination.

We are in a religious war, with Islam.

"Across a wide swath of territory, in Iraq, in Syria, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in Yemen, the West has been or is at war, or near-war, with the Muslim world, in a failed bid to eradicate a metastasizing Islamist movement of murderous hatred toward Western civilization.

To call this movement, whose most potent recent manifestation is the Islamic State, a “dark ideology” is like calling Nazism a reaction to German humiliation in World War I: true but wholly inadequate. There is little point in Western politicians rehearsing lines about there being no battle between Islam and the West, when in all the above-mentioned countries tens of millions of Muslims, with much carnage as evidence, believe the contrary."

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/opinion/roger-cohen-islam-and-the-west-at-war.html

The Jews reject the authority of the New Testament. The Muslims reject the authority of both Testaments. The Koran's history, taken as it is from the Torah, is a complete rewrite of it that fundamentally changes its nature, even going so far as to claim the Kaabah in Mecca was put there by Abraham. As far as we know, Abraham was never within 500 miles of Mecca.

So what is your problem? The Muslims claim Jesus (Isa or Issa) was nothing but a prophet and not the son of God, that he did not come back from the dead, and that he cannot save you from hell. This is the fundamental touchstone of Christianity. Reject it and you reject the New Testament.

Clearly according to the Jews, God was quite the racist, in that the Jews were his chosen people and others were to be wiped out or to be made slaves. However, anyone could become Jewish by subscribing to the Israelite God, as seen by Ruth, Rahab, and a few other non-Jews in the Bible, something that was probably not true for most other ethnic groups in the ancient Middle East. Jesus himself was a bit of a racist in that he compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.

My problem is that liberals want to judge Christianity by how it was in 1000 AD but not judge Islam at all. If you want to be consistent, try judging Christianity and Islam by how they are today.

 

actually you won't see it in America untill the Muslim population rises a little more, but you do see it in other European countries.

 

Actually there are about a half dozen explanations for the Kab'ba.

Built by Abraham
Built by Abraham and ishmael
Built by adam
Built in heaven
Built by the Quaresh, ( This one is closer to correct, but the Juriam is probably the one.
Built by Seth.

Mecca was uninhabited untill about 400 AD.
100 miles through the desert off the trade route.
Very little water and vegetation.
Could not support many people.

 

Come on. The west marched across the ME on numerous occasions.

No serious historians are rewriting history on that.

Let's get the heck over what Christians, Jews, Muslims and the various others have done in the distant past.

 

I am not dwelling on what any of these people did in the past.

I am speaking only of what their books order them to do.
And this is not going away.

Muhammed was a terrorist.
He admits to being a terrorist.
He encourages his men to be terrorist

People who follow the teachings of Muhammed are terrorists.

( Good Muslims) are very evil people.

 

I don't agree in that heinous acts in the OT are said to have been blessed by God.

You claim god didn't ORDER it. But, if he made promises and blessed what was carried out, you can't just ignore that.

I think you will find that the Bible states that the Jews were punished by God on a number of occasions. That's reported in the bible at the same time. For instance, the genocidal terrorism of Joshua was praised by God at the time.

Those fighting against terrorism are MUSLIMS!!

Our conquests in the ME have exacerbated existing problems, NOT resolved them.

The idea that those who we bomb hate us for our RELIGION is just plain ridiculous. They may identify us that way, but they hate us for killing them, for economic domination, for denial of the principles we declare to be self evident. OBL hit us because of our support for the criminal regime in Saudi Arabia, NOT because we're Christians. NOT because he thought the Qur'an was directing him to do that.

Beyond that, nobody is EVER going to win a religious war. As long as we see it like that, we KNOW we can not possibly win. We can't afford to buy into the "religious war" idea not only because it is total BS, but because it is a LOSER idea.
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The only way is to annihilate the religion.
We need to re-evaluate exactly what a religion is.
Islam is a political ideology, but can whine they are a religion.
It will take a little waking up for the west to grasp what is going on,
because if they don't, they will become slaves to islam.


Personally, I doubt we have 10 years left in the world as we know it.
The next nuclear holocost is just over the horizon, and will send the survivors into the stone age.

 

Some are, but those are the other Muslims.
and when they are winning, they are the terrorists.

all muslims are terrorists to the other side.​

 

Yes, Jews and Muslims see Jesus as a man - a major prophet. Yes, much or all of Christianity believes Jesus was both human and god.

They interpret the new testament differently.

I don't have any problem with that. I don't know why I SHOULD have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with whatever religious belief you hold, either.

I bring up the acts of Christians only when people try to point out how horrible Muslims are throughout history.

And, too many of those who judge Islam today think Islam is represented by a tiny number of terrorists who are, in fact, opposed by Islam. And, they think that mainstream Islam is interested in slaughter - which is obviously ridiculous.

 

In that case, you have to count US as terrorists, too.

 

What we see in Europe comes from a number of social, economic and political factors of TODAY.

 

But the main factor is religion... Muslim.
The sex crimes hit the roof.

 

You’ve been shown all 3 abrahamic religions order it.

 

The only way is to annihilate the religion.
We need to re-evaluate exactly what a religion is.
Islam is a political ideology, but can whine they are a religion.
It will take a little waking up for the west to grasp what is going on,
because if they don't, they will become slaves to islam.


Personally, I doubt we have 10 years left in the world as we know it.
The next nuclear holocost is just over the horizon, and will send the survivors into the stone age.[/QUOTE]
And, you don't understand why Islam could possibly be concerned about America when people here talk about slaughtering all of Islam?

 

You are avoiding the actual points here.

Islam needs to address the written word instead of skipping around it.
People actually follow the written word, and many who don't act on it, still agree with it.