Left and Right Facing Off Again in Portland

Portland is totally Democratic majority and has tremendous influence on the state of Oregon.

I see you've put a lot of thought into the subject of another "civil war" in America. There are keywords/ premises that reflect your perspective on what constitutes "white" sentiments as if racial identity is an important issue for contemporary Americans. Keep in the mind the street fighting in Portland was white on white. The very notion that antifa aspires to be guerillas, that the police and military are "naturally conservative", that Evangelicals are not racist-prone are clear suppositions. But, overall, racial identity appears to be a preoccupation/ a signature of your opinion.

Earlier you mentioned providing funds/ support for bullets to an organization. Can you elaborate on this?

 

The historic significance of the United States is that it, above all other nation-states, built itself by amalgamatiing nations: the 'melting-pot', 'assimilation'. What the 'nations' who emigrated to the US assimilated to was the culture of the original settlers, English Protestants -- but in the end, this boiled down to work hard and obey the law.

It's worked wonderfully for all the European ethnic groups, pretty well for the Asians and Hispanics, not at all well for the Blacks.

The historic significance of this should be clear if we look around the world at different places where two or more ethnic groups -- or, better, 'tribes', because sometimes these groups share a lot of genes, but differ in their religion (see N. Ireland, and the former Yugoslavia) -- where two or more tribes share the same geographic space and the same state: it usually doesn't work, and a lot of blood gets shed, there are mass forced population transfers usually accompanied by mass slaughters.

So we shouldn't underestimate the power of racial/ethnic/tribal division, including in "God's country", the USA. it's a wonderful thing that 'non-racism' -- the idea that we're all Americans, that everyone should have equal rights, etc -- is a very important part of American identity, at least among whites. But it's in tension with racial realities, so long as whites are a 'market-dominant' majority, and will be even more in tension with them when whites become a market-dominant minority.

Perhaps the US will evolve to be like many Latin American countries, like Brazil, where everyone will tell you there is no racism, because they are a spectrum. This is devoutly to be wished, but ... even in those countries, as you climb the socio-economic ladder, the skin becomes whiter. And don't think the folks at the bottom are not aware of this.

In an ideal world, all other countries would follow in Americans' footsteps, tribal identities would merge into national identities and then ... in the long term .. national identities would become less and less important as the nation-state itself became less and less important, and was eventually supplanted by transnational institutions. This assumes that the rest of the world does what the Europeans have done among themselves: decided that warring with each other just was not worth it. (But here we are talking many generations in the future, assuming no big civilization-shattering wars, and the continued advance of technology and economic growth, with a wild card being advances in genetic engineering giving us the ability to radically alter our descendants for the better: IQ 175 for everyone.)

However, recent history -- just the last three decades -- has shown how very powerful tribal feeling is, in country after country.

Now it seems to be coming to the US. White radicals and the liberals they pull behind them cannot fracture the US by themselves. They can seriously weaken it, as they are doing to its military. But actual civil war is not going to happen if it depends on white radicals.

What could fracture the US in the coming decades is some sort of tribal-based civil war. I can't give any plausible scenarios for this. A foreigner who didn't know much about the US might posit an attempt by a majority-Hispanic Southwest and California to reverse the theft of half of Mexico carried out by the Americans in 1845. However, the last thing most Hispanics want is to live in a Mexican or Central American style state. (During the last upheaval in the US, in the late 60s and 70s, "Chicano" (Hispanic) radical nationalists had to invent an imaginary nation in the Southwest called "Aztlan" which they were going to separate from the US -- the logical thing would have been to rejoin Mexico but of course they were ashamed of Mexico.)

This foreigner might again think that all the Blacks would want to concentrate together and seize a piece of territory -- the "Republic of New Africa" fantasy. But given the results of African "self-rule", I doubt that holds much allure.

As for Anti-Fa's aspirations to be guerillas: no, I don't believe this. They don't have the technical wit and above all, the moral strength to do what the young men and women who followed the lead of Che Guevara did. Those were serious people who wanted to build a better world, as they saw it, willing to give their lives for it, albeit seriously misguided. No comparison.

My supposition about the conservative leanings of the police and military are commonplaces. Do you disagree? Of course there are exceptions -- Smedley Butler! And there was an LA policeman in the 60s who joined the Socialist Party! More importantly, many of the police and military have a predisposition towards maintaining the legal established order, even when it leans Left. Thus the Spanish police and military split, some of them defending the Republic against the fascists. Even in Chile, there were leading generals who opposed a military seizure of power, one of whom was assassinated for his beliefs.

The group I raised money for, to buy bullets (or whatever they needed, the 'every dime buys a bullet' was just a marketing ploy) was the "Deacons for Defense and Justice", an armed Black self-defense group. We delivered the money at night to someone I believe was the head of the Bogalusa Deacons, Charles Sims. I still recall knocking on his door, and then staring down the wrong end of an M1 Carbine as he slowly opened it. No gun control there.

As for the beliefs of white evangelicals. I suspect -- I haven't seen detailed surveys -- that their racial attitudes are the standard racial attitudes of ordinary white Americans, but ... being Christians, they have something in common with a lot of Blacks.

But much more important is this: a true fascist movement in America will have to blame someone for America's economic problems. No doubt it will point to welfare mothers, but ... no one will believe that the wretched welfare mothers and drug addicts are manipulating the banks, control the Federal Reserve, whatever. The real target of fascists will, of course, have to be the Jews. Now the interesting thing about Old Testament Fundamentalits is that they have a pro-Semitic streak. This has always been true, or at least was believed to be true by the sociologists of religion i read a few decades ago even before Israel became an issue. In the religious South, the 'Jews' are Abraham and David and Saul, before they are George Soros.

But far more important is the fact that these people are very strongly pro-Israel. 'Christian Zionists' are in fact far more pro-Israel than American Jews, who, in contrast to Christians, actually believe Trump favors Israel too much. Genuine anti-Semites, or the ones I have talked to, are obsessed with Jew-hatred. They may also dislike Blacks and Muslims, but they don't see them as shadowly figures behind the scenes controlling the world. This just does not describe Evangelicals. (I know that they theoretically have some nutty belief about Armageddon and the conversion of the Jews at the end of the world, but in fact they have huge admiration and support for Israel now, and it's not just instrumental, seeing Israel as the means to achieve the End Times of whatever. ) This is actually a good thing, with respect to the prospects for American fascism. But of course religious believers of all sorts are a declining group.

But I don't have any particular predictions. If you look at attempts to predict the next fifty years made by some very smart people fifty or sixty years ago, you can see how impossible it is, especially where social and political trends, as opposed to technical/scientific developments, are concerned. There are too many unknown unknowns.

But we can see several negative trends, which are markers for others, and the giving up of the traditional liberal belief in free speech is one of them.

 

This is a bit of a narrative we aren't talking about anarchist leftist groups were talking about communist gang of street thugs and people were hurt.

I think Portland really needs to deal with this menace they have left to grow in there City because it's going to become more violent. What are you going to say to the parents of the Communist revolutionary LARPer when he has a bullet in his skull? I think it's time to send federal police to Oregon and possibly start prosecuting the mayor of Portland.

 

You are making many assertions/ opinions here. I will need to get back to you.

 

What a load of right wing excrement.

I'm sure that if most conservatives, like those on his forum, were to take college level tests on things like history, economics, and political science, that most would fail miserably. A lot of it has to do with the misinformation they get from listening to people like Ann Coulter. What self respecting college would allow the likes of Ann Coulter to give a speech, unless she was billed as an example of right wing misinformation.

Imagine the riot it would cause if I entered a Baptist church and started telling the flock how ignorant they are, and how they have been led by the nose into believing some of the most unbelievable nonsense.

 

If West Coast conservatives -- are there any? -- were smart, they would tell the Patriot Prayers and Proud Boys to get lost.
Then they would organize a public meeting featuring Andy Ngo and several prominent national conservative pundits, including some Black ones.
Give the meeting a title like Why Liberalism is Destroying America, or something like that. Maybe even have a debate with a principled liberal or democratic Sociaiist, or at least give them speaking time.
At this point it would not be hard to get lots of support for something like this.

Then we would see anti-Fa show its true face, and all the apologists for it would have to scramble for new rationalizations for their shameful positions.

 

Sure, fair enough.
I don't really post comments, I write term papers.
I'm always interested in thoughtful critiques of what I say.
If I think you've made a good point, I will say so.

 

Likely because they weren't indoctrinated and these institutions of indoctrination.

No no no a lot of it has to do with not wanting to go into massive amounts of debt for a worthless education.

College is not a test of intelligence if anything it's a test of endurance.

 

Yes of course you are intellectually superior to us. We know no history, no economics, and no political science. You're no doubt very intelligent and well-versed in all of these subjects, and could easily expound on the historikerstreit, the defects of public choice theory, and tell us about Harsanyi's extention/modifcation of Rawls' Veil of Ignorance theory.

However, your analogy is false.
If you walk into a church and start telling the congregation how ignorant they are, etc ... well, don't you see what's wrong with your analogy? A church is a private organization and you're on private property.
A college is different. If a student group on a college campus, or a professor there, wants to organize a meeting, they should have every right to do so.
Ann Coulter is not my favorite person, in terms of her politics. But this does not give anyone the right to destroy a public meeting where she is speaking.

Now, you've probably never heard of Charles Murray, but his meetings too, are physically attacked by the oh-so-intelligent-and-well-read young Lefties.

I would go further: not only should any decent college allow people like Charles Murray to speak, they should positively seek out dissident views, Left and Right, and force their arrogant ignorant young charges to have to listen to them. Charles Murray, Noam Chomsky, Heather Macdonald, Chris Hedges ... learn to think!

 

You can't be serious. There are pockets of sedition in the interior regions of the Pacific Northwest [gun laws] but in the cities that exert influence/ policy/ expression a racist will have no standing. "Communists"

 

There is a scandal of sorts that has long infected Portland. Even though Portland has one of the most liberal and mellow police forces in the country, there is a constant thread of officers who adhere to a white supremacy or white nationalism ideology. There have even been text messages uncovered that show that a group of police officers were coordinating with members of Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys.

Here, from the Rose City Antifa's web site:

 

Looks like Antifa is getting visited by Law Enforcement in the night.

 

You don't think the violence is going to escalate? Do you live on Mars?

 

"I hear"?? LOL. Tweets is now taken as news. Righties are gonna righty.

 

PD is clearly in on this as well.

 

this is a load of left-wing excrement again you just keep dropping these piles all over the forum. Patriot prayer and the proud boys are not white supremacists you're just calling everyone you refuse to engage with white supremacist as a tactic to avoid hard arguments.

I'm not going to trust seditious gangsters. Antifa will say anyone's a white supremacist if they disagree with them.

 

Be a shame if a "decentralized" organization was taken down from the top.

Terrorist organizations should be worried.

 

For the most part, we are talking about "milkshakes" Republicans must be lactose intolerant.

 

You dodged his question.

 

Please be careful, a milkshake is in your future

 

Violence doesn't escalate?

 

When you make a post like this, you should be required to hand out a poop map. I don't want to step in crap like this.

 

Both fascists -- and I'll leave open to what extent the ranks of the Proud Boys harbor people who might genuinely be called that. and confine myself to open neo-Nazis -- and Anti-Fa hate the 'bourgois democratic order'. They get a thrill out of violently suppressing their opponents, and imposing their will on others. They exist at the margins of society, and are envious of the successful. Neither type could engage in a sustained argument in favor of their ideas. I doubt that you could find one member out of a dozen of either group who has read a serious book on history or social theory.

Their formal politics may be 180 degrees opposed, but ... they have things in common. Neither of them like free speech, for one thing.

What's interesting is that this is not new. Something that's not widely known is the extent to which the original fascists, and the original Anti-fascists, could trade places -- or rather, how many 'Anti-fascists' ended up dropping the modifier and just becoming fascists.

Anyone interested in this should read about 'beefsteak Nazis' -- brown on the outside and Red on the inside. More information here.

 

The lack of self-awareness of this person is astonishing. I'm sure all the other liberals are embarrassed.

 

What a load of crap I assure you one thing my 8 years of undergrad and post grad calls BS on your ignorant idiotic belief that conservatives are uneducated. Like the old story goes you start college as a liberal you and become a conservative when you become a boss. Anyone and I mean anyone that has the audacity to assume a political opponent is uneducated is the dumbest person in the room every single time. What a wannabe elitist you seem to be, its laughable.