Living within your means........

The poster I replied to claimed that his success is only based on his hard work and choices, and that lack of success is also a choice. That notion is clearly untrue, as the example in my response indicates. Is that too hard to understand?

 

Such as this shining example of discussion?

"It is noted, though, that none of your post proved the study fraudulent or bogus. Try again."

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...thin-your-means.568074/page-7#post-1071430409

Or this one?

"Total inability to discuss any content of the paper you called fraudulent noted."

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...thin-your-means.568074/page-7#post-1071430409

You might try challenging my completely accurate illustration of your description of the study.

 

Comparing opportunities to succeed in the U.S. with those in Sierra Leone was an interesting addition to the conversation.

 

No matter what advantages or disadvantages you were born with, what you did with those assets and the choices you made put you where you are today.

 

I started with a post citing the article and summarizing its conclusion. You claimed it is fraudulent. I challenged you to show evidence for your "fraudulent" claim. You didn't show evidence. That's the timeline.

Now, I'd be happy to have a serious discussion, if you provide an actual argument of why the article is fraudulent.

Note, fraudulent in science means that the data are fabricated, not that the conclusions based on actual real data is wrong. So, I ask one more time: Is the data fabricated and how to you know it is fabricated?

 

No question about that. Life is an endless series of decisions, often between two or more sub-optimal choices. Some people end up rich making these series of choice, many of them based on gut feelings rather than actual data. Some people end up poor making the same series of choices in different circumstances. Is the rich person better than the poor person? Not in my book.

Look, I have been, in my view, relatively successful in life. I have a PhD from a German University, and then came to the US for a postdoc and eventually became a faculty member, doing what I love, i.e. science, research and teaching. I may not be rich, but I and my family are well off. With that said, I never forget the many people along the way who lend me a helping hand, and who took a chance on me, without who I would not be at the place I am at today. I also will never forget my parents, who were upper middle class people, who provided love and a good education, as well as some inheritance after they passed away.

I am comfortable enough in my skin that I can admit that I am not self-made, but that I had a lot of help along the way, one most important factor of being born in a first-world country to upper middle class parents who didn't divorce. What was my doing in this? Nothing, just the luck of the birth. Other children get born in Wuhan during the corona virus outbreak and die soon after birth. They asked for it, right?

 

As I said, I am going by your description of the study. The example situation, which I provided, exactly mirrors the scenario which you described.

I didn't bother to post the logical answer to my question, because it is obvious. You correctly provided it.

What I can't understand is that you quoted my response, then then labeled me as being unable to respond. I don't get that.

The article, as you describe it, is fraudulent because the conclusion isn't supported by the facts which you provided. You described a non-sequitur.

 

No one has said that anyone is "better" than anyone else, except at ability to make choices and live within their means (the thread topic).

Most people get a helping hand from relationships, networking, family or a combination of all. No one has said anything about taking that for granted.

It's great that you were born with quite a supportive family and took full advantage of your intelligence and educational opportunities. It sounds like you have a lot of time to ponder rich white privilege guilt. Anyway, I am happy for your successful life and University career.

 

I quote your response:

"Like I said, it's obviously a bogus study.

However...

I'm glad you asked!

Let me give you a specific illustration.

1. You are put in a room with 49 other people.

2. You are all given a math test to complete.

3. You do not know that your test is easier than everyone else's.

4. You end up with the highest score.

Which do you assume?

A. Your math skills are better than those of the others.

B. You were given an easier test."

How does that response show that the study is fraudulent? I am asking again, because it is not clear to me.

Second, you extrapolate from my response to rich white guilt. No, what it is: Humility and gratitude for what I was fortunate to get in life. We recently had a thread on that topic.

 

The whole thread id based on that the OP thinks he is superior, because he can live within his means whereas a third of the population are inferior, because they can't. He is not explicitly saying it in his post, but we all know what this is about.

 

In the United States the land of opportunity.

 

While people have empathy and sympathy for those born in conditions that don't exist here in the US, the point is that there are many here in the US that claim the same type of circumstances of your example. It doesn't fly.

One of the reasons this country is the land of opportunity is because everyone is has those opportunities available to them. What they do with those opportunities is up to them. And for the record, 'success' is not necessarily 'being rich', it is overcoming the obstacles that keep you from reaching your own goals. It can be as small as owning a big screen TV, but if you want it, and you have paid for it, then that is your success.

Why do people put so much value on being 'rich'? Supporting yourself and or your immediate group in a comfortable, fulfilling life is 'rich' in it's own way.

 

Ah, the 'I know what he meant' method of assumption. Do you understand how foolish that can make a person look?

 

Your perception, based on someone "not explicitly saying" something in a post does not mean that everyone's perception is the same.

So, if you want to suggest that "we all know what this is about", my perception is that it is about being astonished that a couple making $50,000 a year can't figure out how to live within their means. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Granted, after the first page or two, opinions turned to the mathematical superiority of working hard, saving money and planning your budget on one side and on the other side there is the opinion of moral superiority, sympathizing with those who lack the skills to manage their money.

At the end of page 8, both sides seem to be feeling fairly superior and righteous.

If you disagree, then I guess that "we don't all know what this is about".

 

There are a lot of great stories of struggle and triumph on this thread. Hard work and opportunity. Only in America!

 

I never said it was about my awesomeness. What do you say about Congresswoman Ilhan Omar? She was born in Mogadishu Somalia.

But I tell my story from time to time to highlight the possibilities. There's no one in the US, convicted felons perhaps as an exception, who cannot do what I have done *edit: but felons could take other routes to the same success* Should anyone living near poverty or in poverty ever ask me how to do what I've done, I'll share details with them. But, honestly, my experience is that those who really want to change their lives are already working to change their lives. Those who aren't, with rare exceptions, will not start now. But if my story helps one, it will be worth all the crap I get from those on the left who are afraid of independence, afraid that people who don't need government handouts won't vote for socialism, afraid that people who learn to stand on their own two feet also learn to think for themselves... You keep telling brown people how useless they are, how incapable they are, and I'll tell them how to escape the chains that Johnson and his Democratic Party have put on them.

 

@61falcon did say "most." Years ago when I ran a garage, we had a front end mechanic who could align a car every time with just his eye. Uncanny. He came to me and said he wanted to go on commission. I agreed as long as he promised to check his work. He made a lot of money, that's for sure.

Have you seen the ads for correspondence courses teaching airplane mechanics? What the hell!

 

It's not a question of success or failure. As I mentioned, there are those I know who live near minimum wage but accept it and live within their means because they specifically choose it.

It's a question of choosing your own life and accepting your own part in the choices you make. I chose to try to make more money. The success that counts is that I accomplished my own goals. Quite honestly, virtually everyone accomplishes their goals. They don't accomplish their daydreams (I still keep forgetting to buy lottery tickets) but they get what they want out of life because they get what they're willing to work for...

 

It's like musical chairs where someone ends up with no place to sit.

 

The point is not that the OP can and that others can't; the point is that the others can but do not.

 

Clearly he's on par with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court who has that same skill.

 

There have been correspondents courses for aircraft mechanics for a long time. The hard part is passing the A&P test.

 

I’d like to hear more about real life “easier tasks”. I’m not sure how a rigged study has a great deal of significance here. Are you saying that someone who studied instead of drank in college, or worked summers to pay for college instead of playing hoops everyday were somehow given an unfair advantage they weren’t aware of?

I thought this was interesting on self made being more generous than generationally wealthy. I’d like to see some research on this effect in lower net worth and income brackets but can’t find any.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...rbes-400-the-generosity-of-the-self-made/amp/

Also, how you and I see things in our lives may have something to do with demographics and where we live. A lot of interesting stuff in here.
https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics/who-gives

I have a lot of life experience with mountain and midwesterners who were raised by relatively poor generous parents and are more or less religious as well. All of which contribute to a giving attitude. If you live in a homogeneous high income area of less religious folks in New England your experience is likely different.