On abortion, I say let's go with what we know.

Do you believe a fetus in the first trimester is a baby?

If so, then you believe abortion of a fetus during the first trimester is to deny a person life?

Okay, I'll assume you so believe (those of you who do), that a fetus is a child, a person, a baby, etc.

What about my beliefs? If you are basing your opinion on a belief, cannot I do the same?

Of course I can, and here is what I believe:

I believe in the eternal soul and reincarnation.

When you die, you leave your body and are born again ( just like Jesus said ).

Now, if the body you are about to enter is aborted, you merely find another womb.

See? In my belief system, there is no murder, only an inconvenience and it's not likely you will remember the event. This is actually the more common view in Eastern phyllophytes and religion (or at least my position is derived from eastern philosophy ).

Now, If you haven't lived in a body, acquired a life and knowledge, etc, you are a fetus and if you lose that body, you are not deprived of a potential life, you are merely changing directions, finding a new mom, etc.

Not so bad in that light, if my beliefs are true.

but whose to say your belief is reality, or my belief is?

Who is to make that determination? A republican? A democrat?

Do you see the problem?

We must rule from a fundamental principle, and let that solve the dilemma. We can do it from that vantage point because:

1. The R v W privacy and bodily autonomy principle is the broader concept.
2. We are rendering a ruling based on what is known, and not believed or supposed.

We do know that more women's lives will be put in danger, there will be more women dying due to DIY abortions, back alley abortions, etc., noting that the majority of them will be women lacking means. So, R v W, factually saves lives. To say banning R v W saves lives is derived from supposition, belief, but that women will be endangered for banning R v W is inescapable fact.

I say let's go with what we know.

 

I'm pro-choice but if you think bodily autonomy is applied as a broad principle you've got to be crazy!

 

from the Christian side, they say babies go to heaven... so if that is true.... it's a free pass

 

I know that this is not directly responding to this post, but I have to get it in somewhere. Of course women have been the greatest beneficiary under Roe, but the second is probably all those state legislators sitting in state houses for the last 50 years, who would have had to vote on countless pro-life and pro-choice bills as though they really mattered! If Roe comes crashing nobody in any legislative body will be able to hide behind either meaningless trope. They will actually have to have a complex position, and have to defend a material voting record based on it. It has to be a terrifying thought.

 

Isn’t it? If you get taken to a hospital do you have the right, to refuse medical intervention or are you strapped to a bed and made to comply?

 

Roe v Wade was a godsend to BOTH PARTIES, it's been used as a fundraising club since it was handed down, AND removed the onus on Congress to actually craft a bill BY LEGISLATED LAW, NOT JUDICIAL FIAT....and spare me the "states rights" smokescreen, the federal government has ways to "persuade" recalcitrant states to toe the line..."So, you LIKE getting those Federal highway funds, eh? Well...".

 

That is the most extreme example of bodily autonomy transgression; in any society that isn't completely bonkers they don't directly, forcibly compel you to undergo medical procedures.

You are put in a cage if you use recreational drugs, all medical treatments are hidden behind a wall of state licenced officials and non-compliance results in a cage. Even things like seat belts and helmets, the lack of which physically harms only the otherwise consenting adult.

On the privacy side of things our government does dragnet data surveillance that collects every byte that travels through undersea cables, they trade this information with other Five Eyes nations to evade domestic privacy laws, which is the greatest power ever given to anyone in the history of mankind if abused.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-choice as hell, I just wish we'd live up to the base principles behind that position more. Any restriction is too much? **** yeah, I can get behind that, now what else can we do as well?

 

By your logic even if a grown up is murdered in the streets then their soul will be reincarnated so it’s all good?. How does this make it OK? I’m pro choice by the way (within reason) but I don’t agree with your logic. If you are gonna be pro choice then stop making excuses and false justifications.
I believe in it due to my views on over population.
Does this make me a bad person? Yes. I believe it does. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want to go around bragging about being pro choice (not something to be proud of in my opinion), then you need to own up and not try to sugar coat it with talk of reincarnation

 

Should I also accept your right to believe that 2 +2 = 5. The actual science is very clear.

 

But damn if you don't want everyone to get a vaccine that a third of the population don't need and a small percentage of whom may be allergic. Oh and in the case of abortion there are two bodies involved.

 

Not the beginning of the end.but close enough to forget counting chickens.
meaning even Mother hens have the internal wiring to know and care to
their chicks.Not Todays selfish Wokebegone Mommies.
As if the taking of life of over 60 Million babies { or Fetus } was not big enough
a societal nightmare.Plus it affects mostly Black Moms.Black females have
5 times the number of Abortions than White females.
Kinda explains those on the Left refusing to go and report on the initial
Phase of the Kermit Gosnell Trial.Where the courtroom was basically
empty.The acknowledged Biggest Serial Killer in American History
and a Black Man,was Kermit Gosnell.Purveyor of an actual House of
Horrors.Little Fetus and still-born baby parts in mason jars.
Filthy conditions.Some Fetus just tossed out in with the trash.
Talk about Back alley abortions.Gosnell was worse.Yet the Wokebegone
Lefites who voted for Biden act as if No biggie.Just another day in the park.

 

Since god is all knowing and everything that happens is according to his plan then why do people question their all knowing god? Clearly abortion is according to his plan so surely it should not be questioned.

 

The dirty little secret that won't be little much longer is these vaccines
{ Not Approved by the F.D.A. }... The CDC is lying about that.
Senator Johnston wrote a letter to the FDA DEMANDING official confirmation
as to it's approval.Again the CDC is a pack of liars.Also the reason
this Francis Collins is Resigning from the NIH. Not because he turned
80 yrs.old.But because his versions of fact are In Fact ... LIES.
These Vaccines Reduce ones immunity to Covid.Also the reason
the CDC is mute about Natural Immunity.
Little Lord Fauci once said the Pandemic will weaken once Herd
Immunity gains a foothold.Whatever happened to dat.
It's been conveniently supplanted by Lies atop more Lies.

 

How little you know.God is All-knowing,All-Powerful and All-Present.
But God did not create mankind to micromanage humanity's affairs.
Yes,Miracles do exist.Most human being will witness one or many
miracles in their lifetime.Like a Car crash where a car is destroyed but
the driver walks away unscathed.
God works in strange ways.It is also a Sin in the Catholic faith to
Adore another human.Only God can be adored.One can be adoring
to another human ... But never Adore.
One of the 10 commandments is Not to Adore { worship } Idols.
Nor set up false Idols.
One,even a Catholic can adorn { Make beautiful } but not Adore
or worship other than God,our Lord Creator.

 

Nope...everything that happens is according to his plan. The problem is people like you want to pick and choose what is according to his plan. Sorry...doesn't work that way. It's all or nothing.

 

My religion is fine with abortion.

Please don't tread on my religious rights.

 

The OP says he believes in the eternal soul and reincarnation..... for that admission. But, he doesn't mind that the eternal soul of the fetus doesn't get to live life on GOD's green earth with the rest of GOD's earthlings. That would be like me living in a great America run by patriotic Conservatives/Republicans by deporting or aborting any and all Democrats so I can live life the way I want to according to my own mortal prerogatives, and not by the way GOD had planned for life to exist here on earth.

 

You really should take the time to read the bible before trying to quote it. Please provide me the book chapter and verse where Jesus makes that claim.

 

I think we should go with science. It's not perfect, but it's better than belief.

Currently in Australia, (in the absence of serious health or life-threatening complications for the mother) the consciousness of the fetus is the primary dictate the cut off point for abortion. Now, I personally am not comfortable with the 28 week cut off point in Australia. I think it should be more like 20 weeks like in the u.s. , based on the gut feeling looking at fetus sizes & psychology etc, but I trust that our medical system has actively considered all the aspects including the mother's health in making that decision, so I accept it even though I don't like it.

Texas goes with vascular development ( beating heart). Science says vascular development is common to all animals rather than the unique properties of brain and consciousness development in humans, so it's not a science-based decision, but rather based on the quasi-scientific belief that the heart holds the soul something like that. Actually, further to that I think their new law was to pander to select parts of their base because the democrats are threatening to win Texas.

So I say, for the moment stick with science. And much less belief and politics.

 

OP is actually saying that belief, including his own, should not be used to make decisions about abortion. It's a subtle point, I know, hard for you guys to understand....so I thought I'd just highlight it.

 

The OP said if you lose that body (fetus) you are not deprived of potential life, you are merely changing directions. And what I'm saying is that the aborted fetus/life of GOD's children are being deprived of a life here on earth. So its no one's decision (including the OP) to think that any decision that supports aborting any and or all of GOD's children is anything but a mortal crime/sin.

 

The question, for us Christians, is at at what point is a fetus vested with a soul. Is it at conception? Is it when the heart starts beating? Is it when the brain becomes developed to show consciousnesses? Is it at the point where the fetus could survive a premature birth? Or is it at birth? Most Christians believe that it is at conception. The Texas law puts the mark at the point when the Doctor can detect a heart beat. Other laws put it around the point when a child can survive outside the womb. But none of those laws will make any pro-lifers or anti-lifers happy. Further, neither side is willing to compromise on the subject. So, let's take some things off the table.

First, late term abortions. Any abortion after the sixth month. Women know full well that they are pregnant by then, and they know whether their pregnancy is based on incest or rape. As far as the health of the mother is concerned, that is usually know before that end of the second trimester. Beyond that point, there are too many doctors like Gossnell and Tiller that will falsify the paperwork to preform later term abortions when they are unnecessary. The health of the child should not be a consideration. Aborting a child because he/she has down syndrome is beyond unethical.

Let's also remove the BS claim that a woman has the right to determine what happens to her body. No one is trying to take that right from them except when she is carrying another life. When she shares her body, by choice, with a man, then she gives up a portion of that right. Especially when another life is formed because of her decision. Now, do not get me wrong, I believe that the man bears a financial responsibility towards that new life. When the child is born, then the woman can chose to allow the man to have custody of the child if he wants, or to put it up for adoption. There are plenty of couples that can not have children of their own that can adopt the child.

On the subject of Row v Wade, you supposition is that doctors and women will break the law by preforming and getting abortions. It is sad that we have to try to govern based on the assumption of disobedience to our laws. But there is one fact that those anti-lifers do not seem to get. Sex is not a requirement of life. A person will not die from not having sex. Therefore, if a woman chooses to have sex, and then use abortion as a form of birth control, she should go to jail.

 

No,all doctors are not criminals...

That's your opinion...but I'm sure you'll give all your money to support the extra needs of children born with a disability, won't you !!!

THERE it is AGAIN, folks!

Women must be PUNISHED for having sex..

FORCED gestation to provide others with kids is heinous.

AND HOW many have YOU adopted? There are UNADOPTED kids,, thousands of them....HOW IS THAT WORKING??????

"""Therefore, if a woman chooses to have sex, and then use abortion as a form of birth control, she should go to jail."""

THERE it is AGAIN, folks!

Women must be PUNISHED for having sex..

DENYING women their humanity....treating them like cattle....disgusting.....

 

You spent the post dealing with beliefs - opinions - and then you say we should go with what we know. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is the opposite of yours. Now that is something we know.

 

I really don't care what people believe. It becomes an issue when their beliefs are being forced on others. The same people that oppose government interference on the abortion issue, support government interference to force their beliefs on others.

By the way, your belief in reincarnation should disqualify you from having health insurance. (Due to a pre-existing condition!)