Our education system could get a boost by copying Finland

If there are any teachers out there not doing their BEST NOW giving it their FULL EFFORT because they think they should get paid more to do it they should be fired not given a raise. The left seems oblivious to the obvious.

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And they fail simple biology. They seem to think intelligence is something endowed equally amongst us by some power, not a simple matter of how good a brain you have and how well it works and that that is measurable.

 

I suggest if all teachers were required to have a masters degree, and teachers were only selected from the top 10%, and class sizes are smaller, it would not be possible in the US to create enough teachers. Maybe in 40-50 years but not today and not in the short term. And even if we could have a 40-50 year plan, the American public won't fund it and the current government is going deeper in debt every day!

And, just because something works well in other nations does not mean it will work well in the US culture.

Lastly, on the topic of public education, just as with SS or Medicare or infrastructure, basically all government programs except military, Americans won't fund the government and don't like change from the status quo and we're not really smart enough as a group to find consensus on effective solutions to fix the myriad broken government programs. I'm not being a pessimist...I'm believe I'm a realist...

 

Typical distortion. No more money alone will not make someone more effective and better. What it can do is attract people you can do the job well, who might not otherwise want to do it now because teachers are not paid very well. Not only that but it can serve as an incentive for those who are doing well, to continue to perform well, and not leave for a better paying profession because they feel that the level of compensation is not worth it for the work.

 

Are you saying that evidence exists that over all a probability exists that the average 'black' baby is likely to be less intelligent than a 'white' baby?


And as for competent teachers, how competent does a teacher have to be to considerably overcome parental deficiencies? Just competent or highly, or very highly educated and effective?

 

What I'm saying is that we are spending too much money on it and putting too much emphasis on it. I don't care what your schools did.

So? We spend more than the rest of the world combined on defense.

Yep. That's just the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Everything about that response demonstrates the need for lower student teacher ratios.

Concerning tuition, much of it does not go directly to training the teachers.

I didn't say it would NECESSARILY be the same teachers. But in the case where it would, I said why in my response to an earlier question.

Teaching, when done properly, is one of the most difficult things. That's why teachers need to be trained better and they need to be paid more.

 

Ignorant land. OK, fair enough. I'm gonna show you about ignorant.

Work force? You mean white, corporate America? You mean the land of ignorant, arrogant, degraded, white men, who are highly paid to engage in the practice of deceit? I'll demonstrate what it's like in such a work force. Consider that high and mighty corporation, the bastion of the arrogant white man, Fox News Corporation. Behold their wondrous work:

THAT'S WHAT YOU CALL IGNORANT!!!!

 

That is the question, isn't it? And one which the conservatives will automatically dismiss as a false comparison.,

But the United States spends far more on war than it does on education. We are also the world's largest weapons producers ,and our gun industry is arming a drug war in Mexico.

As I read through the OP's list, my main question was how are we going to pay for it.

I sit on my Board of Education, and we are in operating budget mode right now. The things the Finns are doing are far beyond our financial capability.

Having said that, it isn't a matter of whether we can do them or not, it's a matter of whether we are willing to pay for them.

 

So that's how YOU build up YOUR lines of defense for YOUR deceit?

Probably don't want people to be educated so you can get away with spewing unchallenged nonsense on the radio.

 

Yes, Ignorant. Because you needed to quote your experience filled with vile hatred, contempt and jealousy, instead of using your own. For every sexual harassment instance there are numerous examples of women using it in reverse to get ahead. And you'd know this is you had any real experience. The fact your article should seem surprising to you, proves your ignorance, as if you think that doesn't go on EVERYWHERE in the world. Naive indeed.

Is it despicable sometimes? Sure it is. But that's life. That's business.

 

That's what you call getting ahead? That response is ignorant.

 

Yes, it is getting ahead. If someone gets a raise or promotion using sexual advances, then YES, they are indeed getting ahead. We might not agree that its the moral way to do it, but happens, A LOT. Never heard of sleeping your way up?

Ignorance is not seeing that this goes on and its understandable, considering your lack of experience. Its OK. Get a few more years under your belt and you'll see all the many ways people do business around the world.

 

Typical liberal knee jerk solution, just throw money at it.

So then the teachers we have now can't do the job well?

They are paid better than most middle class workers and when you add in the benefits and the weeks they put in a LOT better. Teachers managed to get the job done in the past when they weren't paid as much as others.

How much should a 1st grade teacher teaching basic reading and math and writing be paid. It doesn't require a masters degree to do that you know. And if they are not making enough money then why do so many teachers I know not work summer jobs to make more money?

 

Can you show me any studies or educational results which show that intelligence is equally spread out amongst us? That we are all born with the same brains?

" Originally Posted by Bluesguy
And a competent effective teacher. You can overcome lousy parents but if your teacher is incompetent and unable to properly teach.................."

Competent, my parents had little to do with my schooling that was the job of teacher and the school, the people trained to do it.

 

Our educational system could get a boost if we started tracking kids and steering them to either college or vocational school.


But they'd call that racist when the college bound are mostly white and asian and the auto mechanic class is mostly black and mexican.

So instead we spend billions sending ppl to college who have no business going, only to fail out and not have a vocational skill to fall back on.

 

So Roosevelt should have limited the spending during WW2 to no more than we spent on education? When did one become the measure of the other?

And in your combined operating and capital budgets how much do you spend per pupil?

 

What possible with a small population isn't really possible on a MUCH larger scale. If you put wealthier families and those of certain demographics who care about education, I'm sure our kids compare quite evenly with any in Finland. Its not an across the board FINLAND IS BETTER THAN THE US comparison. Apples to Peanuts. We have issue they just don't have to deal with, which tips the scale unevenly. Is our spending as responsible as theirs? Doubt it. Do they have as much bureaucracy as we do? Doubt it. Do they protect their bad teachers or do they boot them out of the system? Don't know.

 

I have suggested many times on PF that IMO a school system should be designed requiring zero from parents and no homework...100% of education is obtained during the school hours.

If a parent wishes to be involved, or a student wishes to do additional study at home...this would be a bonus situation but not required.

I think school should be 8am to 5PM, M-Th, 46 weeks per year, and this includes breakfast and lunch and no additional cost for books/supplies.

When we fully know that many kids do not have involved parents, and many kids do not have functional study areas in the home, why would we be so stupid to design an education system that requires either of them? As long as we do this, and force the nearly impossible on many kids, we will simply perpetuate this area of education failure...

 

If we could afford it, sure. I hated homework.

 

More or less yes, however to the extent that this untrue can we really say that the physiological differences are spread unevenly among the different peoples?


Indeed I respect your personal anecdote and in your case the teaching was clearly competent enough to produce a result. However would this competence standard work across the varying learning and social backgrounds such that teachers can handily produce the same results for everyone?

Or perhaps is the teaching we require to produce results across all peoples need a more radical option in the anglo saxon environment?

 

Yep. The point is that the reality is butt licking is the key. Some meritocracy.

 

That's not an exclusive liberal phenomenon. George W Bush "threw" all kind of money at Iraq. It's still a mess to this very day.

You left out the next part.

Teaching is harder work than most middle class professions when done properly.

What you don't understand is that a really good teacher needs to be someone who can emphathize with all types of students. A really good teacher needs to be an expert in the psychology of children. A really good teacher is someone that loves all types of people, loves humanity. It's not someone who just comes in a class and puts material out, like a someone in the zoo throwing food to animals.

 

The American class-biased indentured-servitude system is designed to make students work without reward until they graduate, which may be as long as 24 years if they want to cure cancer. The purpose of this is to make sure that when they finally get paid for work, they will accept less than they are worth. Like any other bullying system, it produces unmotivated and demoralized citizens. That's why they've never cured cancer among other massive wastes of talent. Under this system, our talent pool has been turned into a puddle.

 

The gurgling, babbling media have hypnotized you into that required answer. Snap out of it and ask how much parental involvement affects students' athletic achievements? Hardly any. Changing the attitudes of the students' peer group by changing the unnatural way school is structured will lead to the same eagerness to work that we get in student sports.

 

Teaching is very difficult when done properly. A teacher must be extremely patient. Different children will learn different things at different paces. One child might be very quick to catch on to language arts, but may be slower in math. Another child might be quick in math, but slow in language arts. An expert teacher has to understand this, recognize this, and be able to remain equipoised when a student might be slow.

A teacher must be extremely tolerant. Children can go on extreme emotional roller coaster rides. One minute they can be angels, the next they can be brats. An expert teacher has to understand this, recognize this, and be able to remain equipoised when students are on the down side of an emotional cycle.

A teacher must have a genuine love of all humanity. It is not acceptable for a teacher to like one type of student, but despise another. Teachers need to have clean, disciplined minds and have the mentality that actually they are the humble servants of society. It is not a profession for someone who is too arrogant. Only a humble person can be open and honest enough with themselves to be able to appreciate and love humanity.

A teacher must be expert at psychology in order to understand students and be able to motivate them properly. Knowing when to adjust reward and punishment is an art, and the teacher must understand this well.

A teacher must be expert at the subject that is being taught. You cannot teach that which you don't understand yourself. Their intelligence has to sharp, crisp, and to the point. No hemming and hawing around.

For these reasons, teachers need to be trained extremely well, and paid well. We need a class of super teachers.

 

What you just described, is not the norm in the usa. Our teachers aren't that together. A very small portion can do this.