Scots Begin Struggle For Independence:

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by janpor, Jan 26, 2012.

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  1. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    So now we've established what the "N" in "SNP" stands for let's move on to what the "S" stands for.

    Is it "Scotland" or is it "Souter" because a lot of us are wondering?
     
  2. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Fortunately that hasn't happened in Scotland.
     
  3. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Wiki is not a credible source, particularly when edited to suit the bias of the poster.

    We are not much bothered by racism, compared to England, perhaps there is a lower level of immigration or perhaps the temperament of the people is different. Many intellectually challenged Scots prefer religious bigotry.
     
  4. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Please evidence your assertion.:blahblah::roll:
     
  5. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    What exactly are you seeing in Scotland and please evidence your claims, for those of us who have never seen racism here, despite being married to a foreign national for some years now...(honestly if it weren't so offensively inaccurate, it would be funnier and funnier).
     
  6. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Another conspiracy theory...I'm beginning to think many posts belong in that forum as they are so detached from reality.

    Accurately expressing the impact of continual attacks which forced expenditure of huge resources over centuries...is not racist. It's accurate. It expresses exactly how people felt about the pointless continual harassment and how they felt released when the harassment ended... to the extent that it kicked off the Scottish enlightenment and industrial revolution which improved conditions across the world.
     
  7. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    IMHO, when Scotland banned smoking they lost the right to be anything but somebodies butt buddy.
     
  8. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Aye right enough...the establishment have a lot to answer!

    But that is only the tip of a very large iceberg.....Rev Gordon Haggerty!
    or
    The solicitor who committed suicide?

    Aye a lot to answer!

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  9. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    I've seen that, too

    Despite having lived in London all my life, I've only personally seen one incident of racism. I wouldn't dream of using that as evidence racism isn't a problem, though. That would be silly.

    Don't like wiki?

    OK, read this:
    http://news.stv.tv/scotland/227562-racism-on-the-increase-in-scotland/
     
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    then confront it where you see it.

    your point is? I lived in London for 14 years myself. At that time there was a great deal of racism though we were also working hard to change things. Not living there now I cannot comment.

    So what? There were 55,000 for England and Wales and has been previously pointed out Scotland is currently going on a spree of no tolerance. It really is necessary if we want to look at the situation and if people are determined as they seem determined to be to make this into some kind of competition or hate thread on Scotland, to look at more precise data. I have already provided data of in depth studies on Muslims in Scotland which shows that like it or not Muslims feel able to take on a Scottish identity and find it easier to integrate in Scotland than in England. Scotland is not without problems and need for improvement but there is no way you can move away from the reality that they find it easier to feel at home in Scotland. The suggestions that they were in danger were hence libellous.


    Another area we could look at is Institutional Racism. This certainly is a problem in England


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/17/stop-and-search-race-figures

    The Metropolitan Police are also still notorious for Institutional Racism despite you never having experienced any racism in London.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8506098.stm

    Now when looking at the likelihood of a State treating it's citizens in a way harming to those of a different ethnicity what we should imo opinion be looking at is more Institutional Racism, parties and groups set up to harm those of different ethnicity and laws to protect human rights. As you can see here England is definitely a far bigger threat to those who are not the indigenous population.

    1. Institutional racism as seen with Stop and Search and the Met police at least.
    2. The National Front, the BNP, the EDL
    3. The Conservative Government wanting to opt out of EUHR.

    Now, any chance this thread can get back to what it was rather than a competition on which country is the most racist?
     
    Viv and (deleted member) like this.
  11. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While I do not deny that is your xenophobic desire, the reality is that this thread is on Scottish Independence.

    You will see that a desire for Scotland to have Independence has been there since the forced Union.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13315752

    I gave a full account of how the Scottish Nationalist Party managed to get an overall majority in this post http://www.politicalforum.com/weste...nce-consultation-paper-13.html#post1060901713 and it had sfa to do with 'Nationalism' in the sense that is known today.

    I also provided you with access to a video so that you can see some of the reason why Scottish people might like Independence. Here it is again. http://vimeo.com/12458284
    In respect to Viv's desire to keep threads on topic, I should have put both those in this thread but they are here now. You ignored them there.

    Further, when you continue with this bigotry towards Scotland it is completely appropriate for me to point out that England is the country which is far more likely to go the way you are libellously implying Scotland might.

    Those were
    We could also add that England is going further and further right wing while the SNP is a centre left party

    http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatIsLeftOrRightWing

    Now can we get this thread back on topic. In this post I refer you to a post where I describe the process which got us to the point of Referendum. I have also included a link on why people may want Independence. These are areas where there is room for genuine discussion.

    Let's get this post on topic and quite your bigotry.
     
  12. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    I'm confronting it now, what about you?



    My point is that personal anecdotes are meaningless.
    Which part of London was that?


    I think you'll find that some Muslims in Scotland are ready to take on a western identity, although I wouldn't put it like that myself.

    It is rather they are happy to integrate and adopt western ideals, while at the same time keeping much of their own culture.


    It is a problem everywhere, alas.

    London is our capital city, and since the bombings strict legislation has been introduced.

    I'm not sure exactly what good that has done, but have to admit there have been no more terrorist attacks despite the fact we are still under serious threats. However, that's another argument.

    As for institutional racism in the police, that, too, seems to be everywhere.

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2002/06/1717

    Oh, no way! I can play that game, too.

    1. Institutional racism in Scottish police force, about which nothing much is being done..
    2.The Scottish National Front, The BNP ( B stands for British, you know, which includes Scotland) The SNP.
    1. The Tory party can want what it likes. It's not going to happen.

    Now let's, indeed begin to talk about Scottish independence properly and stop all this this stupid rhetoric.

    First of all, it's extremely unlikely Scotland will be independent.
    Why do you believe this is so?
     
  13. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You were claiming something without reference.


    I agree with you there but that is all this thread is about. Personal abuse. People refuse to deal with the issues.

    I lived in Central London, in Camden Town. I was working in Brixton at the time of riots.


    I have left a study link. That is what I am referring to. I would not know personally myself so how somebody who claims to have lived all her life in London and does not like personal anecdotes could claim to know anything is a sign of just how stupid and childish this conversation is. Rather than checking and arguing the report, you succumb to silly opinions which have zero basis.

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2011/03/08091838/4





    meaningless garbage


    That does nothing to explain the stop and search black people from London have explained they were experiencing every day leading to discontent which was part of the original riots last year.

    You would do well if you read the investigation organised by none other than the SNP themselves.

    tis a work in progress not a stagnant situation towards ethnic communities like you have had in London these past 30 years.



    I accept to you it is a game. I am not a child and I am not interested in such silly provocation by people who clearly have nothing better to do with their day

    issues which have just been discovered and are being dealt with.

    No here you are talking nonsense. I had never even heard of them in Scotland but I did a look.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13048754

    and their great results http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/overview/html/scotland.stm

    The BNP, EDL, SDL and the National Front have had no place in Scotland much as their English counterparts try to get it going. Pathetic, disingenuous try.

    Now I have wasted enough of my time on you. I have a life to get on with.
     
  14. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    The editing function is a wonderful thing.



    A lot of it is coming from you.

    Brixton is now on the up and up. My daughter lives there.



    I'm going by what I have learned from various news sources over the years.

    I looked at your link:

    Both the Asian Muslim and white research participants made a distinction between people they saw as Scottish Muslims and non-Scottish Muslims. Certain cultural features like accent, dress and behavioural characteristics worked to upset the relationship between skin colour and behaviour and suggested the possibility of a hybrid cultural identity (Virdee et al 2006).[/quote]

    Were they actually asked about their feelings of Britishness?

     
  15. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Yes, you know the answer, Fredc. Just don't take anything more to do with them, the feckers.:woot::laughing:
     
  16. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Oh DL...why don't you go and read this:

    http://crossofstgeorge.net/forums/

    Paris...I am not recommending that forum, as the reality is Stormfront allegedly has an English equivalent. Apparently Breivik made himself known there.

    Actually although I don't have a knowledge of the person you mention, between you and me :laughing: if Scotland does take independence we are likely to appreciate a few people who understand devious cheating ratbags and know how to deal with scum and thugs at the highest level... in order to defend ourselves from the vicious and dishonest sharks who will circle.

    THE THREAD IS ENTITLED SCOTS BEGIN STRUGGLE FOR INDEPENDENCE :eyepopping::laughing: We are not interested in continually having to defend Scotland from ridiculous inaccurate slander in this thread. Once again, these are all off topic posts derailing and destroying a thread. You won't mind if I start reporting them as off topic and ask for them to be removed from here in, ok?:nod:

    Well said.

    You have a different system there. Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, Wales are countries, not states. It's just like being a member of the EU or UN, you wouldn't then say US becomes a UN state. UK is a closer alliance, but we are no more attached to it than you are to the UN. It's just a political alliance which attained peace from England and helped us out of an economic hole at the time, but is no longer working for Scotland and it is time to exit the Ponzi scheme.

    Indeed, that is indisputable and England were banned from international football.

    You're on the ball as usual, Paris and sure you can see through what is going on in this thread.

    And that is the only possible reason Scotland might vote to stay in the defunct UK union...it is to be hoped even the sectarian bigots can see past how they have been politically manipulated into the No Popery mentality and realise being ruled from UK is no different than being ruled from Rome. But then again, those who advocate the union and cling to religious bigotry are not known for independent thinking. They have clung to the myth for centuries now and entrenched thinking and silo mentality won't change overnight.

    Let's hope the people see through the manipulative divide and conquer this time Highlander.
     
  17. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    She said she did not know who the man was. Nor did I till I looked him up just now.

    Please tell us what Viv's policies are on Gypsies and Homosexuals with links for evidence. I am not sure how far this forum allows personal abuse but you seem to be treading very near most. Now prove you know what Viv's policies are on homosexual and Gypsies and let us know what they are.
     
  18. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    You didn't know who Brian Souter was? How can that be? He's the SNP's largest benefactor, he's the man who pays the piper and the man who calls the tune.

    Or should we call him Sir Brian now? He did get a knighthood shortly before promising to match pound pound SNP donations up to half a million.
     
  19. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We are not discussing Political donations. I am waiting for you to provide proof for this

    Provide proof that you know viv's policies on Gypsies and Homosexuals with links if you want anyone to believe a word you say.
     
  20. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Independence is not about the SNP. They may be the vehicle taking us there but they are not what Independence is about. There are many small parties including the Greens which already openly support Independence and I understand also a fair number of those in the Traditional parties who are at the moment harnessed by their political leaders in Westminster, so be aware, Independence is not about the SNP or even a vote for the SNP.

    I notice many Celtic and even Rangers supporters are moving towards the yes vote. Celtic traditional Labour supporters and Rangers.....well, I think people know a little bit Unionist by tradition.

    I will say it again, the SNP are the vehicle, not the destination.
     
  21. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How exactly does her using the term Tinker tell you her policy towards gypsies and where is the link saying what her policy towards gypsies are

    Well provide the link where she uses the word tinker and states her policy for dealing with them.


    She didn't support Brian Souter. She said she didn't know who he was, and his belief in Thatcher's policies has nothing to do with Scottish Independence.

    No more than any other party. Have you had a look at where the Westminster Parties have been getting their funding from recently.

    No, this thread is on Independence.

    You have not shown any proof that you know viv's policies on either gypsies or homosexuals accept to say she used the word tinker - no link to show how this showed her policy and absolutely nothing to show her policy on homosexuality.

    You look like you are a person who likes to make unfounded slurs rather than debate.

    Scottish Independence it still is. Have you read the post I referred to as to why we have reached this situation. Have you watched the video?
     
  22. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Brian Souters? Is he related to that Brian Souter you mentioned earlier. The one I've not heard of? On googling, is he Sir Brian Souter, of the Charitable Trust? And Stagecoach etc. Very good. Perhaps Scottish business success makes people uncomfortable...

    Whit? I am advising you up front, I've reported this post. We haven't discussed homosexuality or gypsies. I have defended the rights of both many times on this forum and others though, so you're flogging a dead horse with that.

    I think the issue here is really that you have no understanding of Scottish politics or nationalism and how it differs radically from nationalism in other countries in that it is not exclusive. The only point and purpose for people like me to support SNP is to remove Scotland from the UK union for the good of the country's future.

    When that is done, it will be time to look closely at SNP policies and assess whether they are worth retaining in power or if other Parties should be considered.:reading:

    I've heard more of Ann Gloag, tbh.

    On those two previously unbroached and off topic issues people here know I support gay rights and have defended them repeatedly in threads all over the board.

    Gypsies I can't say I have formed an opinion although I really like their big wedding dresses :cake: and I would say they are entitled to the same civil rights as anyone else. It would probably help their situation and popularity if accommodation were built for them to use in the same way as caravan holidaymakers, but they would have to contribute toward the costs as everyone else contributes via council tax etc. It's their choice if they come further into the community or if they prefer to carry on as is. I admire their freedom but they can't have an easy time of it in reality.

    Well shockerooni, I'm not and never have been a member of the SNP. Jumping to conclusions all round again, Wrong Said Fred.

    Tinkers and gypsies are different. I never read your links on a point of principle about not wasting any more of my time than I already have through being forced to read the inaccurate drivel posted in the thread, that is an often used local expression which I used in exchange for the expression I would naturally have preferred to use but which the profanity filter does not allow. I hold my hands up though if it is regarded by normal people (not yourself) as currently offensive. However, let me apprise you of the real situation regarding the local "tinker". Tinkers here are Scottish. Not a different race. I support minority rights and am married to a non-Scot of course. However, it is an oft used local saying due to an interesting family who came into the community under that label when I was a child (although they have a very Scottish name so evidence is they are Scots through and through) took root and have become "allegedly" ...well I have tread carefully but they are known locally by some as the "McCorleones".

    People will come to know them in the next few years, or perhaps not as they maintain a low profile and use others as a legitimate face. However, they are currently said to be financing a candidate for election. |This person is MD of several of their companies. Their money pit according to local legend is bottomless and apparently neither legally declared nor acquired. They do know how to run a business though and I predict they will be a substantial force in national politics before long if that is their inclination.

    Who are you calling "she"?:laughing:

    How did I support Brian Souter? Are you hallucinating? I said I don't know who he is. When did that translate to support?
     
  23. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    Homosexuals are naughty little tinkers .
    All tinkers are gypsies .
    Ergo all homosexuals are gypsies .

    BBC Brains Trust 1955
     
  24. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    The Greens say they support independence to gain votes from the SNP after the SNP took votes from the Greens by saying they would be green.

    What a party does if they get into power is a different thing, I mean in their 2003 manifesto and at their 2006 conference the SNP said they were going to re-regulate the bus services.

    Though it seems independence does have some support, one well known Australian Scot seems to be backing it.

    http://news.stv.tv/politics/298257-rupert-murdoch-hints-at-support-for-scottish-independence/
     
  25. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You believe that the Greens are lying about being pro Independence? link please.

    yesterdays news.

    Independence has a lot of support my friend

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...d-independence-referendum-pat-kane?intcmp=239
     
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