I am not going anywhere, already travelled around the world, something I doubt you have done. Nope, I will stay right here and try to help where I can to help improve the Nation and defend if needed against those Traitors that want to destroy it. You on the other hand want to tear it apart to form your own little part of crazy you want because you cannot stand the idea of losing under the system set up by the Founders, it will Not happen. Now back to whatever it was you were doing, more than enough time wasted on your "stuff".
To Casper: Do you really want to match frequent flyer miles with an old merchant seaman who sailed dozens of break/bulk freighters to all of the major ports in the world?
Don’t believe this one: It’s a sting designed to trick secessionists into signing secession petitions so they can be fired. The federal government gives money to traitors, to known-enemies, to foreign dictators, to illegal aliens, to global warming crooks, and to just about everybody who comes calling with a palms-up hand, but it isn’t likely the federal government is going to give an income to anybody who signs a secession petition. It’s simple. The money that goes to every piece of slime in the world comes from the people in every state. When the money stops going from seceding states to the federal government there ain’t enough money to go around. And why would anybody getting the money want their state to secede? Seceding means severing ties with the federal government; ergo, severing their own incomes. You gotta really love freedom to sign a secession petition when it can hurt you. The Founding Founders did just that. Thomas Jefferson concluded the Declaration of Independence with this: Defense Department: Signing secession petitions won’t affect your security clearance 12:35 AM 11/21/2012 David Martosko A Department of Defense agency tasked with investigating personnel for security clearances said Friday that government contractors who work on top secret projects won’t find their clearances in jeopardy if they petition the White House to allow their states to secede from the U.S. The Defense Security Service (DSS) wrote in a Nov. 16 bulletin to government contractors that ”erroneous statements have been made to the effect that DSS is directing contractors to treat the signing of such petitions as reportable adverse information.” (RELATED: White House ‘secede’ petitions reach 675,000 signatures, 50-state participation) By “adverse information,” the agency means personal information that could lead the federal government to cancel — or to not renew — a “secret,” “top secret,” “Sensitive Compartmented Information” or other clearance level. Many government contracts require companies to task sensitive work to citizens who have undergone extensive background checks and receive such clearances. DSS is responsible for ensuring that contractors follow rules outlined in the National Industrial Security Program Operating Manual. That guidebook requires contractors to report to the Defense Department when they learn that a cleared employee has made “suspicious contacts,” becomes a “representative of a foreign interest,” or otherwise could be “compromised.” The Pentagon agency did, however, leave its options open regarding petition signers. “Please note,” the agency cautioned, ”that DSS has not provided any approved direction or guidance. … This issue is under review and DSS will provide information to contractors when that review is complete.” http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/21/d...etitions-wont-affect-your-security-clearance/
The Secession Movement is not getting much coverage in the MSM, but it is alive and well. I’ve read a bunch of articles about secession written by knowledgeable people. Most say there is nothing in the Constitution that prevents secession. In addition to informative background Professor Walter E. Williams sums it up nicely: Secession: It's constitutional Walter E. Williams offers evidence from 18th and 19th century U.S. history Published: 9 hours ago by WALTER WILLIAMS For decades, it has been obvious that there are irreconcilable differences between Americans who want to control the lives of others and those who wish to be left alone. Which is the more peaceful solution: Americans using the brute force of government to beat liberty-minded people into submission, or simply parting company? In a marriage, where vows are ignored and broken, divorce is the most peaceful solution. Similarly, our constitutional and human rights have been increasingly violated by a government instituted to protect them. Americans who support constitutional abrogation have no intention of mending their ways. Since Barack Obama’s re-election, hundreds of thousands of petitioners for secession have reached the White House. Some people have argued that secession is unconstitutional, but there’s absolutely nothing in the Constitution that prohibits it. What stops secession is the prospect of brute force by a mighty federal government, as witnessed by the costly War of 1861. Let’s look at the secession issue. At the 1787 Constitutional Convention, a proposal was made to allow the federal government to suppress a seceding state. James Madison, the acknowledged father of our Constitution, rejected it, saying: “A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound.” On March 2, 1861, after seven states had seceded and two days before Abraham Lincoln’s inauguration, Sen. James R. Doolittle of Wisconsin proposed a constitutional amendment that said, “No State or any part thereof, heretofore admitted or hereafter admitted into the Union, shall have the power to withdraw from the jurisdiction of the United States.” Several months earlier, Reps. Daniel E. Sickles of New York, Thomas B. Florence of Pennsylvania and Otis S. Ferry of Connecticut proposed a constitutional amendment to prohibit secession. Here’s my no-brainer question: Would there have been any point to offering these amendments if secession were already unconstitutional? On the eve of the War of 1861, even unionist politicians saw secession as a right of states. Rep. Jacob M. Kunkel of Maryland said, “Any attempt to preserve the Union between the States of this Confederacy by force would be impractical, and destructive of republican liberty.” The Northern Democratic and Republican parties favored allowing the South to secede in peace. Just about every major Northern newspaper editorialized in favor of the South’s right to secede. New York Tribune (Feb. 5, 1860): “If tyranny and despotism justified the Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861.” Detroit Free Press (Feb. 19, 1861): “An attempt to subjugate the seceded States, even if successful, could produce nothing but evil – evil unmitigated in character and appalling in content.” The New York Times (March 21, 1861): “There is growing sentiment throughout the North in favor of letting the Gulf States go.” There’s more evidence seen at the time our Constitution was ratified. The ratification documents of Virginia, New York and Rhode Island explicitly said that they held the right to resume powers delegated, should the federal government become abusive of those powers. The Constitution never would have been ratified if states thought that they could not maintain their sovereignty. The War of 1861 settled the issue of secession through brute force that cost 600,000 American lives. Americans celebrate Abraham Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address, but H.L. Mencken correctly evaluated the speech: “It is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense.” Lincoln said that the soldiers sacrificed their lives “to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth.” Mencken says: “It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of people to govern themselves.” http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/secession-its-constitutional/ Here’s an entertaining, and informative video to top off the topic: [video]http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/secession-american-as-apple-pie/[/video]
Still confused I see. Only a handfull for nut jobs and Traitors want to tear the Nation apart, it ain't gonna happen, enjoy.
It probably will happen. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen. The fact that we have remained a unified nation for so long, operating with what appears to be a democracy, is rare. All cultures and civilizations eventually collapse from within or without. History says it is so. Every great civilization since the recording of Man, has collapsed. To actually believe that it cannot happen or won't be allowed denies the obvious. A society reaches it's pinnacle then starts the downhill slide. IMO, the US has plateau'd itself and is in the stages of collapse. Today, this nation is so polarized between this side, that side, and the other side, that neutral ground and common sense have no real estate left. Whether it is by internal strife such as secession or attacks from without, this country will follow history's course. Your statement is inaccurate as far as numbers go. That may have been the case several elections ago (filing for seccession), but this is different. In the past, the numbers ranged from 7,000 to 30,000. This time it is expected to hit the high end of millions.
So employees want to secede but they are afraid of losing their jobs??? LMAOLMAOLMAO. People of strong convictions, obviously. ROTFLMAO. They want to secede from the UNION while they continue to work for the UNITED STATES Department of Defense??? C'mon, you gotta admit, that is just TOO funny. Secessionists afraid of losing their government jobs. Wow. Un-freaking-believable.
They're petitioning because they don't want to be exposed as secessionists so they can keep their jobs with the government they want to secede from. Next thing you'll be hearing is that they will be wanting to keep their government pensions and healthplans after they've formed their new confederacy. It really doesn't get any better than this. HIGH-larious.
To phoebe Bump: What’s hilarious is you thinking the DoD offered “amnesty” out of the goodness of its heart. You obviously do not know much about Secretary Panetta’s background. Your nonsense about pensions and health benefits is nice misdirection. Security clearance amnesty was NOT offered to federal employees working for the Dept. Of Defense:
Americans seceding and making themselves weaker globally with China growing like this and just when Europe is finally putting all its thousand year old pride & differences aside and is finally uniting? Nonsense! Wouldn't it be simpler, if an extreme case demanded it, for all Americans to demand that the constitution for all the 50 states be rewritten from scratch?
To Vlad Ivx: Let us worry about defending this continent without carrying Europe, too, or depending on Europeans as allies. Nobody in their right mind would count on European Communists fighting with America against Communist China. To Vlad Ivx: Why in hell would Americans imitate Eurotrash “. . . putting aside pride and differences. . .” when it only means another form of totalitarian government? Your continent has a history of Europeans embracing totalitarian governments and glorifying a long list of dictators starting with Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar all the way up to Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini. Europeans love being enslaved so much they even took the Marshall Plan and used it to keep socialism/communism alive. Today’s Europeans would have been better off had America let them dig themselves out of the rubble they created. Had they been required to pick themselves up they might have learned that a benign dictatorship is impossible. To Vlad Ivx: Europeans better learn a lot more about individual liberties before suggesting our Constitution should be rewritten. In all of Europe’s history not one country, or empire, was ever as great as America used to be because of the Constitution and the Original Bill of Rights. Americans are now beginning the fight to get back the freedoms that were taken away by collectivist parasites. You did not say it, but I’m sure you want the Socialist scum in our federal government to do the rewriting. One look at the EU tells me that no European wants to see an American Constitution that reinforces existing individual liberties as well as add a few more. Finally, if you want to talk about Americans you would do well to make an effort at understanding the Eric Hoffer quotation following my signature.
Only a year or two ago USA borrowed a massive amount of money from China. At that point it had no money to pay its very defenders you talk about, take the soldiers in Iraq. Because they've been doing this thing resembling Eurotrash since their birth. Why abolish it just now? To me the idea of being American is inextricably linked to federalism. At least Stalin's slice of Europe did not receive any American aid at his express command... And the other part would simply have died without American help... I know. The Constitution and the Original Bill of Rights might be the greatest political achievement of all time. And I did not suggest anything... I just asked, just wondered. Pay more attention when you read a post. There is a question mark at the end of that sentence. Why do you think I'm here? ...because I want to learn more about USA. How can you imagine we tell people from another continent what to do with their continent? I'm here to learn more about the parents of modern federalism. The 18th century was the Renaissance of Democracy in the world and America with George Washington was nowhere else than at the center of it. Lol I don't want that. You have socialists in the federal government? Hmmmm. A lot of them? A lot of socialism seems to arise everywhere. Don't worry they tried it in France not long ago and it imploded. The current French president is also socialist but he doesn't behave like one. I think nobody's gonna take them seriously in a country like USA, ever, neither will Europe.
To Vlad Ivx: Most Americans want to secede from the kind of Americans who did the borrowing. To Vlad Ivx: The idea of being American is inextricably linked to limited government. To Vlad Ivx: I have no idea what that means. To Vlad Ivx: Only might! If you are not sure you must have something better in mind. To Vlad Ivx: The bit about a growing China and rewriting the Constitution from scratch is more than wondering. It reads like you want to learn just enough to suggest Americans make changes more in line with a European worldview. To Vlad Ivx: Because of lost European empires, or to be more precise a return to Europe’s relevance in the world which is what the the EU is all about. To Vlad Ivx: Do a minimum of research and you will find that the men who ratified the Constitution had no use for democracy, and with good reason: To Vlad Ivx: In this country they are called Democrats. To Vlad Ivx: A majority in the federal government. Thirty or so percent of all Americans. They constitute the parasite class. To Vlad Ivx: Approximately 38 percent of eligible voters just gave a Communist a second term. Is that serious enough for you!
So Flanders what is it that this 'corrupt federal govt' of yours took from you? Pls go beyond broad terms like liberty, fundamental rights and exemplify them. What has changed as opposed to the good American times you mentioned? When did the bad transformation begin and what do you think was it that triggered it? Thanks
To Vlad Ivx: First let me say that I only answer questions when I want to elaborate on a point. Oh-so-clever liberals can research my messages for answers to the loaded questions they invariably ask whenever they debate. To research my views click on my screen name at the top of any post and use the drop-down menu. Youre European; so Ill make an exception. Dont make a habit of asking questions if you intend to respond to my messages. If you have something to say say it. Incidentally, I did not come to my beliefs by asking liberals loaded questions, nor did I ever try to convince them of anything. In fact, I prefer they did not read or respond to my messages. Everything I know to be true about socialism/communism I came by honestly through experience, observation, research, and just plain common sense. To Vlad Ivx: I guess you did not put enough effort into understanding every aspect of the Eric Hoffer quotation following my signature. In this case apply Hoffer to socialism. Socialism is a religion whose priesthood can only govern by dictating behavior. The recently signed into law Affordable Care Act is the most obscene move to dictate behavior. Moreover, socialism is a religion so corrupt it can only save the world after socialisms priesthood exercises totalitarian control. Where have I heard that one before? In order to govern they must take away everyones Right to refrain, withdraw, and abstain. The intelligentsia vehemently denies that socialism is a religion. They lie with good reason. Their incomes depend upon it. Socialism is the only religion with total access to the public purse. The socialist priesthood lives, and lives quite well, on tax dollars. The socialist priesthood decides how much each member of the congregation must donate to mother church; the government. Should socialism ever be legally defined as a religion that would be the end of it because nobody would voluntarily contribute to such an obscene belief system. I am not certain what it is that makes Socialists/Communists despise the US Constitution? Is it a hatred of private sector freedoms? Is it unrelenting hatred of private property? Is their hatred of Americas sovereignty so deep they would give it away regardless of the consequences? Or is it nothing more than a hatred of the First Amendments authority to drive the Socialist priesthood away from the public purse? Im partial to fear of losing income as their primary motive. Their other hatreds are real enough, but it takes tax dollars to fuel them. The saddest thing about Socialists is their delusion insistence that government will create a utopia on earth, while denigrating everyone who believes in paradise in the next life. Such a contradictory belief system is the clearest manifestation of an incurable mental disorder. One of the reasons liberalism/socialism is a religion is that liberals are hellbent on forcing everybody to convert to socialism/communism. The First Amendment stands in their way; so liberals are in the process of abolishing every part of the Constitution that stands in their way while circumventing what they cannot abolish. Countless people the world over understand why socialism is a religion in all things except a belief in a Supreme Being. Aside from the philosophical similarities between traditional religion and socialism/communism which often go too far afield in debates, the best proof I can offer is the socialist priesthood itself. Take a good look at our leading Democrats and youll see that they are exactly the same as every other priesthood ramming their morality down everyone's throats. And just like every other priesthood that acquired government control they combine morality and government in order to end up with all of the money. Not the least of their of self-serving designs is seen in imposing the tax collectors morality on a once free society. If there is one thing every religion shares with every other religion it is this: Freedom of thought is bête noire to everyone of them. Punishing politically incorrect speech is socialisms way shutting down freedom of thought along with shutting down freedom of speech. To Vlad Ivx: Transforming America into a theocracy. Abolishing the First Amendment was the starting point, but dont expect to hear anybody in the current administration say it since they have no use for the Constitution, and even less use for freedom of religion. Good men who normally distrust theocracy severed Islam the religion from Islam the political movement. And just like socialism/communism, Islam cannot survive as a religion alone. Islam can only survive as a theocracy; i.e., a totalitarian government. Islam is a political movement because it establishes theocracy by combining government and religion; the exact opposite of what America stands for. Islams biggest fear is losing its status as a religion should the First Amendment be applied as it applies to every other Supreme Deity religion. Churches can lose their tax exempt status for preaching politics from the pulpit, yet Islam does just that every time it tries to gain a foothold in Americas judicial system with shariah law. NOTE: Both Islam and socialism/communism are theocracies that must destroy individual liberties if they are to survive. Both fly in the face of mankinds march towards freedom from totalitarian government. Ultimately, Islam must be legally defined as a political movement, while socialism must be legally defined as a religion. That is the only way to deny both their First Amendment protection. Notice that America is the only country that provides a tool for reigning in theocracy. Stopping theocracy is infinitely more difficult than is simply stopping big government alone. Heres the reason. Religion and government will always plague mankind. The trick is to limit government and keep religion voluntary. Theocracy does the opposite. Socialism has been the most destructive of the two theocracy movements to date because Socialists fund their religion with income tax dollars thanks to the XVI Amendment, while petroleum money is responsible for Islams resurgence in the past century. Ask yourself: Where would socialism be today without the tax on income? and where would Islam be today without petro-dollars? To Vlad Ivx: The Progressive Movement around the turn of the 20th century. (In an effort to distance herself from the word liberal Hillary Clinton foolishly said she was a progressive. Both are the same.) Non-existent International law is mentioned in this thread and should give you a few answers; at least enough for further research if youre interested.
To Margot: All of a sudden you find secession offensive! You must be an imam. You always pop up in my threads whenever I mention Islam’s theocracies.
You are correct that ALL Nations fall sooner or later, but by history's standards we are still a young nation and have a long future ahead if we work together to make it happen. Millions? I have seen no data that supports that claim.
Parasites are responsible for the decay in this country whether it is called moral state or immoral. I contend parasites brought down Toynbee's 19 civilizations from within. I’ll go even further and say that parasites weakened the other three civilizations so much they could not defend against forces from without. That is exactly where America is at today. Anyone who maintains secession will destroy the country does not seem to understand they are going to lose their country if America goes where the parasite class has been taking it. I happen to believe the decay can be reversed by using secession to force parasites into their own states. The next best thing to separating from the parasites by secession is repealing the XVI Amendment. Without a tax on income parasites will have to take care of one another while the rest of us work for our loved ones and ourselves rather than being forced to work for strangers.
Basically, Flanders.. you are full of hot air with little understanding. You don't know anything about Islam or the Arab world. You are a victim of all the insta-pundits who showed up on TV after 9-11 slinging around words like Jihad, madrassa, Sharia law, wahabi etc.... Only sore losers and petty poops would secede from the US over a lost election..
Senior citizens and the disabled. I am reminded of a petulant child kicking the stairs at bedtime. Read the Graying of America.. The baby boomers are moving like a pig thru a python.
