Should all religious-equivalent laws be struck down?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Levant, Jan 17, 2020.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Like I was telling K9Buck, we have to be careful about simply saying that a life is terminated during an abortion as it does not fully explain the full picture. We should be precise in describing exactly what type of life it is that is being ended. Why? Because just because something is alive doesn't necessarily mean that ending that life is immoral or something that should be outlawed. After all... a skin cell is alive, should ending that life be illegal? A sperm cell is alive... an egg cell is alive... should ending those lives be illegal? And if not, then why exactly should it become illegal once they meet? Potential?... As other posters in the thread have already pointed out, even a sperm can potentially lead to a new human child under the right circumstances... same for an egg. So the question once again becomes...why choose the meeting of those two as the cutoff point for legal abortion? Why take such an extreme stance when there are so many other more reasonable options available?

    A. Lovemaking (Week 0): Because Any Form of Abortion is Murder
    B. Conception (Week 0): Because Life Begins at Conception
    C. Conception (Week 0): Because since no one knows exactly when a zygote becomes a child, it must be assumed to qualify as one
    D. Nervous System (Week 12): Because the baby’s senses are developing and it looks pretty human at that stage
    E. Viability (Week 20): Because the earliest surviving baby was born at just over 21 weeks
    F. Thalamic Afferents (Week 20): Because its been theorized that connections between afferents may be capable of pain transmission
    G. Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 23): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Thalamocortical Fibers
    H. Viability (Week 24): Because that's when the law defines a fetus as becoming a child
    I. Viability (Week 24): Because that's when a fetus is able to live outside the woman without artificial means
    J. Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    K. Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 23-29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    L. Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 20-29): Because this is the period in which a fetus develops the structures necessary for pain perception
    M. Mental Life (Week 29): Because fetal consciousness cannot and has not been observed to occur before this point
    @. Medical Community (Week ??): Because the decision should be left to the doctors and patients who are more than capable
    N. Birth (Week ??): Because That is When a Baby No Longer Depends On Its Mother to Live
    O. Birth (Week ??): Because Women Should Always Have the Right to do What They Want With Their Body

    Also, given all of the above, what is you opinion regarding the following compromise proposal?
    How far does it differ from your ideal? And if its not close to your ideal would it at least function as an acceptable compromise for you?
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/pf-abortion-reform-compromise.550627/
    -Meta
     
  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Sounds like that would be an expensive endeavor which wouldn't benefit anyone, not even the children.

    Why?

    Its almost starting to sound as if you're more against the way certain people have sex than you are against abortion...
    BTW, you never answered my question from before...

    You mentioned earlier that abortion was always the wrong choice, which presumably means you think it should be illegal from the get go, i.e. conception or even earlier at lovemaking. But if so then why? Do you make any exceptions for serious threats to the life or health of the mother? Do you make exceptions for rape? For incest? For fetal abnormality??? And again, why choose conception/lovemaking as the cutoff point?... Potential?... As others have pointed out, even a sperm can potentially lead to a new human child under the right circumstances...
    ...same for an egg. Why choose the meeting of the two as the cutoff as opposed to any other point during development?
    Why go to the extremes when it isn't necessary???

    A. Lovemaking (Week 0): Because Any Form of Abortion is Murder
    B. Conception (Week 0): Because Life Begins at Conception
    C. Conception (Week 0): Because since no one knows exactly when a zygote becomes a child, it must be assumed to qualify as one
    D. Nervous System (Week 12): Because the baby’s senses are developing and it looks pretty human at that stage
    E. Viability (Week 20): Because the earliest surviving baby was born at just over 21 weeks
    F. Thalamic Afferents (Week 20): Because its been theorized that connections between afferents may be capable of pain transmission
    G. Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 23): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Thalamocortical Fibers
    H. Viability (Week 24): Because that's when the law defines a fetus as becoming a child
    I. Viability (Week 24): Because that's when a fetus is able to live outside the woman without artificial means
    J. Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    K. Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 23-29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    L. Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 20-29): Because this is the period in which a fetus develops the structures necessary for pain perception
    M. Mental Life (Week 29): Because fetal consciousness cannot and has not been observed to occur before this point
    @. Medical Community (Week ??): Because the decision should be left to the doctors and patients who are more than capable
    N. Birth (Week ??): Because That is When a Baby No Longer Depends On Its Mother to Live
    O. Birth (Week ??): Because Women Should Always Have the Right to do What They Want With Their Body

    -Meta
     
  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Avoiding blanket generalizations is definitely the way to go on a subject like this.
    In fact, I think that blithely categorizing folks into a limited number of rigidly defined boxes
    is a big reason for why many people can never seem to come to any sort of understanding regarding this sort of thing.

    I'd also agree that it makes perfect sense to not be in favor of something (like abortion)
    but to at the same time be against instituting laws which ban other people from doing it.
    But at the end of the day it sort of all comes down to a balancing act.

    Ultimately, if we hope to ever put the issue to rest,...compromise of some sort will be a necessity.
    You mentioned before that you felt the following compromise proposal sounded reasonable,
    but do you think you'd actually be able to accept something like it as a compromise,
    even if it meant that most abortions after the 24th gestational week would become illegal???

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/pf-abortion-reform-compromise.550627/
    -Meta
     
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  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't believe anyone in the thread has suggested killing children... (as in already born children)
    Wanton hyperbole like that is another reason I think for why issues like this tend to become so contentious.

    -Meta
     
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  5. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can you name one single way to stop any of the murders that are taking place across America today?
     
  6. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would contend that the "sex act" is a very cheap definition of LOVE.
    I would contend that love entails honoring life sacrificially which is far more than a 6 hour thrill at best!
     
  7. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    I agree, but only because abortion laws are unenforceable. The belief is that laws would lead to more live births, but no reasonable person would believe that those who want an abortion wouldn't find a way to get one.

    Your statement calls for the operation of the mind. You are not qualified to speak for these people. Abortion laws failed long before the internet and abortion drugs were easily available. Abortion laws would certainly not lead to millions of children; only create demand for black market abortions, drugs, and medical tourism. Do you have any solutions for that?
     
  8. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes. The second amendment allows citizens to protect themselves from murders and rapists. Of course, many believe that your rights over your own body is worth less than their righteous beliefs and push gun control. Just like people push for abortion laws. The same way gun laws create a demand for black market firearms, abortion laws create a demand for black marker abortion, illegal drugs, and medical tourism. Were you able to think of ways to tackle those issues?
     
  9. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    not the same at all

    “I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.” - Donald Trump, 2002

    forcing a women to have her rapists baby is like raping her again
     
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  10. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you want to take a rare exception to abortion and classify it as a rule? If a women is raped she must have the courage to deal with it immediately. The rapist should be immediately castrated and she should be given the morning after pill. When the child is developed, he does not deserve death for the crime of his father (if you could call him that)
     
  11. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    My position is not "Abolish all laws" Today, if someone is considering abortion, she can speak up and be provided with options. Any chance to convince her to give life and put the child up for adoption is lost if abortion is illegal. She would keep her issue to herself and terminate her pregnancy without anyone knowing. There is nothing you can do about it if you use the mighty government as a solution. You will only silence her and bury the real numbers making it appear that it was reduced to a minimum.

    The good news is that the abortion rates are dropping and those who care can and do make a difference.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2020
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  12. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Donor

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    Actually, it does fully explain the full picture.
     
  13. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Donor

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    It absolutely benefits the children, future children, and the taxpayers. When parents get out of jail for neglect, they'll start taking care of their children. When future parents see parents in prison for not taking care of their children, they'll take care of their own children. When parents start taking care of their own children, taxpayers will not have to take care of them.

    Why must it be put back in the jar? Because we're murdering millions of unborn children every year just so people can have sex without consequence. Your proposed reforms aside, there are many thousands being murdered globally, each year after the 24th week, and the left is proposing allowing what I like to describe as postpartum abortion, killing babies born alive. The worst brutal genocidal dictators in the history of mankind are no more evil than is the practice of killing our babies.

    I am cmopletely against the way certain people have sex. There are two kinds of people, having two kinds of sex. Responsible people having responsible sex and irresponsible people having irresponsible sex. I am most assuredly against those who are having sex in the irresponsible way. If you had some other meaning in mind, you'll have to be more specific.

    You noticed that?

    That's because it is always the wrong choice.

    How is lovemaking the cutoff point. It's possible to have sex without conception. Lovemaking is a word used by the pro-abortion left to distract from the term conception. They're two different things. Besides the fact that the word for it is not lovemaking; it's sex.

    You cannot abort a child until the child is created - conception. I make no exceptions for rape - which counts for less than 0.5% of all abortions. I make no exceptions for incest. I make no exceptions for fetal abnormality - otherwise known as the genocide of Downs Syndrome babies.

    Woman with Down syndrome gives awesome pro-life speech at UN: ‘Please don’t try to kill us all off’

    Man With Down’s Syndrome Gives Speech About The Value Of Life — Goes Viral

    The question is not sincere. Sperm is not a human life but the fertilized egg is a human life. It has all the DNA it will ever need to be a human being. It is complete. The sperm is not, any more than is the unfertilized egg.

    Protecting innocent life is extreme? I would have thought that taking the life of an innocent child for the convenience of the mother would be considered extreme.


     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  14. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for establishing that you have never bothered to research the NEGATIVE IMPACT your DEMANDS will have on the UNWANTED children that will be FORCED to live with the CONSEQUENCES of your own UNINFORMED position on this matter!

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/abortion-denied-consequences-for-mother-and-child_b_6926988

    Links to the Prague Scientific Study and the follow up study;

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/016502548000300302

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1016/S0968-8080(06)27219-7

    There are around 1 million abortions each year here in America. You are DEMANDING that these MUST be STOPPED which means that as each decade passes there will be ANOTHER 10 million UNWANTED children.

    In two decades there will be 20,000,000 million UNWANTED children who be causing problems in schools with many of them involved in juvenile delinquency.

    In 3 decades you will have an INCREASE in the prison population as eldest of the THIRTY MILLION unwanted children end up committing CRIMES and being INCARCERATED!

    That is the FUTURE that YOU want to IMPOSE on TAXPAYERS because of your uninformed DEMANDS that there must be NO ABORTIONS!

    Do you have any idea how much MISERY and SORROW your position will INFLICT on those UNWANTED children?

    Obviously not!
     
  15. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You do not address, however, the evil industry in our culture that makes abortion a matter of profit. That industry portrays abortion as an "easy thing" and to some, it is a status symbol as in "plastic surgery" liposuction and the like. We do know the industry does also profit in a ghoulish body parts for sale industry as well, not to mention the tax dollars poured into it.
     
  16. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Donor

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    And the only way to deal with unwanted children is to kill them? Not even after they become juvenile delinquents but as soon as they're in a category with an increased risk of becoming juvenile delinquents we kill them? What about all of those unwanted children, or even wanted and loved children, who become delinquents and we failed to kill them ahead of time? Should we kill them later? Postpartem abortion?

    The idea that every child who is born rather than aborted will be unwanted and unloved is ludicrous. Here's a list of 10 abortion survivors who didn't turn out to be juvenile delinquents. You're throwing out completely false numbers to support the most evil genocide in the history of humanity.

    And just how much miser and sorrow is caused to an unwanted child by burning them to death in a bath of saline? Or injecting potassium-chloride into their heart or brain? Abortion is not about protecting children; it's about sex without consequences - or at least it pretends to be. For the child tortured to death, ripped apart, parts sold for profit and make-up and shampoo, then abortion certainly wasn't done to protect them.

    The louder you scream that it's for the children, the more you demonstrate that you don't care a single iota for the children.
     
  17. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    You automatically thread jacked your own by placing it in the abortion section
     
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  18. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    A lie is when one makes a statement that is contrary to the truth, or knowledge as the case maybe, and the one is aware of it, but makes the untrue statement with intent to deceive. If the one actually believes what they say, then it is not a lie, regardless of how untrue it is. Unless you have evidence to the contrary of their knowledge/belief, please refrain from calling someone a lier.
     
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  19. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thats a different issue altogether. Selling body parts should never be legal, but donating them is better than throwing them into the scrap bucket.

    So far, no one on your side of the debate has been able to address the issues that make abortion laws obsolete.
     
  20. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    You were provided with SCIENTIFIC STUDIES that PROVE that UNWANTED children born because ABORTION had been DENIED had a much greater propensity for NEGATIVE OUTCOMES!

    But instead of addressing the FACTUAL REALITY that establishes that your position would result in these NEGATIVE OUTCOMES for unwanted children you wander off on a meaningless deflection filled with extremist debunked drivel.

    In essence you have just managed to destroy your own credibility on this issue.

    Abortion is LEGAL and women have a RIGHT to decide for themselves whether or not choose to have a child.

    That is their PERSONAL and PRIVATE decision and YOU don't get to IMPOSE your beliefs on them.

    No one is forcing you or anyone else to have an abortion!

    No one can FORCE someone else to bear an UNWANTED child!

    That is what freedom and individual RIGHTS are all about.

    Deal with it!
     

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