You seem to think that if some people believe in god A, others believe in god B, then because people disagree then there is no god. And thats faulty logic. There can still be a one true god, God does not require people to agree on His nature. Its just like the flat earth analogy - before people knew the earth was round some believed it was flat and others round, that does not mean both are wrong because people disagree, it means one group was wrong and the other was correct. That also means you believe god is a construct of human imagination. It places god below humanity, such a god cannot be the creator of the Universe or heal the sick.
It isn't a matter of this or that It is a matter of God not having a human set of qualities. You are trying to make god à human, to refer to him in human terms. You never will. You will always be creating something you will never describe .
A lot of the disagreements over the past 2000 years is not about God but about churches keeping power. Disagreements can be seen from a perspective that exaggerates conflict or one that moves people closer togethor. For example, the Catholic Church and Protestants are not that far apart on salvation. Briefly, the Catholic view is that a person enters a state of grace (enters the family of God) but must maintain that state of grace through works. For Catholics, no works means no salvation. Protestants believe that a person enters a state of grace and has salvation, no works required to keep salvation, but many Protestants believe that if a person getting "saved" does not result in a life of good works then the person did not really accept Jesus. For both, a person who has faith and good works has salvation. And both expect that to be the normal course of events - salvation leads to good works. Salvation does not lead to perfect people, but better people who live a better life. The difference is if a "saved" person does not do good works. Catholics would say the person does not have salvation. Protestants suspect the person was not saved to begin with and does not have salvation, but they are not sure because works are not required for salvation. A major difference is that the Catholic church believes the Pope has the power to excommunicate people - remove their salvation. This is where power politics come into play. Excommunication is not about God but about controlling people and amassing wealth. And that's a big reason why the Catholic Church does not like salvation through faith alone - salvation through faith means the relationship is between God and the individual without the Church as the middleman gatekeeper.
So you take a gamble and hope you got the right lottery ticket. And you will never know if god even cares. Seems a stressful way to spend your life to me.
With all due respect, that's not true. It's why I explained my faith early back in post #5 on the first page. Catholics have never believed in sola fide. That's a creation of the reformation along with sola scriptura that under gird all of Protestant theology. What the Catholic church (and other similar churches that were not part of the great Schism like Eastern Orthodox, etc.) is that salvation is solely from God alone. That means it's open to everyone, Catholic or not. When you die, Catholic or not, we believe you will go directly to the presence of God- alone, broken, naked, and probably terrified- where you will account for your life in God's presence. Again, everyone. Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, ancient tribesman who's never seen the western world or its religions, everyone. Even if you've been excommunicated. That's why the Catholic church never formally says who has gone to hell. They don't know. They will say who they are sure has gone to heaven by bestowing Sainthood, but never who hasn't. And the lives of several saints have been generally pretty sketchy. Sainthood is a lesson for Catholics and that's why it's done. Now the Catholic church has always been populated with humans so it has often been severely flawed (and greedy), but Salvation by God alone has always been constant. The issue of sola fide has never been an issue of the Catholic church.
I did not write Catholics believe in sola fide, just the opposite. But the Catholic Church also does not believe in salvation through works alone. The Catholic belief is that salvation is through faith and works. The initial justification of grace is from God and not through works, but the final justification is through works. Since you are Catholic, the relevant Catholic Catechism is Part 3, Chapter 3, Article 2 (Justification) 1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us. God grants a person grace, as a result that person is filled with the desire to do good works (note that "good works" includes strictly spiritual activity such as prayer and worshipping God and witnessing to people, as well as benevolent activity such as feeding the hungry). Protestants believe the same thing. The works part is more indirect but the catholic web site says it well Are Good Works Necessary for Salvation? | Catholic Answers "After we’re initially justified, then we must carry out the good works that God wills for us............We also know that works pertain to our final justification, since Jesus teaches in Matthew 25:31-46 that the determining factor for those who go to heaven or hell are those who did and did not do the corporal works of mercy." Thats the difference. Catholics believe works are required, Protestants do not (but they do believe true salvation is shown in good works). In the real world what difference does it make? Both Catholics and Protestants believe grace is from God alone, its bestowed upon a person through faith, and it instills in that person a desire to do good works, and the vast majority of people who are "saved" will do good works. Thats where the Protestants stop. Catholics go on to say good works are required, if a person does not measure up they go to hell. So the people affected are those that are "saved" but change their mind later.
What is Salvation to you? Is it by definition something that can only occur after one's life is complete? After they are dead? If so, then all of one's life therefore piles up and whether through faith or through works a determination is made by an external force placing an entity into either a pleasant or an unpleasant eternity? If so, then is it discontinuous in its very nature, is it essentially discontinuous? My observations seem to indicate to me that most folks live life largely in harmony with one another, or at least within the constraints of the laws of civilization. Some folks may be compelled to do this in pursuit of an advantage after life. Some Christians will share with anyone interested that they know they are saved. I know a few folks in this category, at the moment I'm thinking of three people and they are three of the most decent people I've ever known. They generally treat others as they'd like to be treated and they do this just because it's the right thing to do. They do not do this because they live in fear of not making it through the proverbial Pearly Gates of Heaven. I'm not sure they even believe in the concept, but they do feel a deep connection to this incredibly inconsistent spirituality as documented by its scriptures. To me these inconsistencies setup some fairly serious conflicts that become part and parcel of folks cognitive dissonance in accepting lots of other stuff that lacks internal consistency. For example, it's a glaring inconsistency to anyone that has ever read just the gospels of the New Testament that the vast majority of prosperity gospel ministries manage to ignore all of the gospel bullshit about the spiritual advantages of being poor, much less some of the subsequent books explicit endorsement of communal finances. Right wing evangelical passionate opposition to socialism, is it supported by the scriptures? I believe salvation is a continuous process and I don't think the concept is limited to Christians. Salvation to me is the pursuit of simple sanity in an often insane world full of conflicts. As such, faith is way more important than works. Faith is ultimately all anyone has as the basis of their knowledge, beliefs and what may eventually attain the nebulous high standard of wisdom. Works, or actions as I prefer, cannot even begin without will and intent and both of these are directed by one's beliefs, or faith. I have faith that my company will compensate me with a paycheck and this faith has never been broken. Once, fresh out of engineering school and with over a year of just coding C++ I started freaking out about my first time coding ladder logic. I actually had to talk myself down from that little anxiety attack and I did so through a brief but careful assessment of what exactly I was doing with my life if I didn't have faith that that Allen-Bradley ladder logic would do exactly what I expected it to do, just like C code. Let me tell everyone of you people that choose to make your life difficult with this sort of crap, these two thousand plus year old religions from the middle east, studying them, pouring over this stuff. Faith is the same thing as knowledge and belief. You either know something or you don't. You either have faith in your knowledge or you do not. And if you do not have faith in your knowledge, then you do not have belief in what you know and you are lost. If you cannot separate the vast areas of our existence that are still to this day unknown and highly speculative from the stuff we do know for a fact - that no living organism comes back to life from death, for example, then you can't even begin to draw a line between speculation and faith in your knowledge of what is and what is not.
Didn't Luther state that James was "an epistle of straw" or something like that? Luther also eventually came to have a true hatred for the Jewish people because during the first part of his life he was expecting Jews to flock to the brilliance and Solomon like wisdom of his teachings. Luther in a way set the stage for The Holocaust by some of his teachings. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-luther-quot-the-jews-and-their-lies-quot
Maybe so. But that's the irrationality of it. There is one earth and one mankind. So there can only be one true God.
Well, if true then it seems highly unlikely to me that a search for that one true God could afford to ignore the vast majority of the religions this world has ever seen. I don't see an argument that the number of gods is one or that there is only one way to worship god. For example, even our nation's founders had reasonably significant differences of opinion from at least some of the Christians posting on this thread. Also, we don't know whether there are other places in the universe where there is sentient life.
And the glitz of worldly secularism? I gave it no permission to fill the earth with its doctrines. Yet it makes of it what it will. So neither do I need its permission to speak.
I dont think you're lying. I think you genuinely believe that 'offering different options to consider', 'encouraging them to think further than their restricted mental space' and trying to change peoples 'perspective' is somehow not trying to change their ming. I just think you're wrong, and you've convinced yourself of that because you look down on other people who do the same thing, so you call it something different when they do it. Thats what I think. But I have an open mind. I could be wrong. Its just that none of what you've explained that you do seems different to me than how I try to change peoples minds.
Absolutely not. There is much value in broadening out what you know. It can either change your individual or confirm what you originally thought Why are you so defensive against knowing more?
Then ignore it. Your last sentence makes no sense. Use your free will and make your own way through life which constantly throws up choices. Nor do you have to live like anyone else. This is fundamental freedom!
When a person posts that view it always means the same thing - the person thinks they are right, the others are wrong and ignorant and if they would just get educated they would agree with that person. It’s the sign of a closed mind.
Enhancement requires change. That is a simple and objective fact. You cant make something better without making it different. Clearly this where our impasse is. I dont know how you think you could 'enhance' someones mind without changing it.
It's not the same everywhere else, that's correct. As you're probably aware, Catholics are trinitarians, and everyone doesn't subscribe to trinitarianism, whether they be Unitarians, Jews, Muslims, whatever. Then, of course, the concept of God is radically different in many Eastern religions, particularly the polytheistic ones. I never said God is universal. You must have me confused with someone else who said that.
That's true - we disagree. I believe it ALL involves free will. Faith itself is an act of free will, and obviously so are works. It's all about agency.
