Stephen Hawking’s hypocrisy, double standard and a whiff of racism

Where is Borat getting this complaint about the UK being against the partition of Israel/Palestine. Except for a few lefties, what the UK wants is what many Americans want and what even some Israelis still want - a two-state solution. Create a real Palestine from virtually all the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, have a very carefully controlled transit corridor between the two (which until Hamas makes peace with Fatah won't be much of an issue anyway) and if Palestinean attacks become too great and too annoying go to war with Palestine and defeat them once and for all.

It would be up to the Palestineans to make such a solution work once Israel conceded the preconditions for a real two-state solution and if hubris led them to try and get rid of Israel at that point they would get their just desserts (driven out in the desert or dead).

 

Well, that's what the Brits advocate here on this forum. If they don't represent the "silent" majority of the population then perhaps the majority has been too silent for too long. It's my impression that if a two state solution is ever agreed upon with Jewish independent Israel still on the map, many British participants of this forum would need to be put on suicide watch. Their true objective is the elimination of the state of Israel, a one state solution is what they advocate, the well-being of the Palestinians and the creation of a Palestinian state alongside Israel don't interest them in the slightest.

As I said perhaps I am wrong but if I hear just one voice from coming from the UK I have no reason to assume that there are other views on the conflict

PS I never complained about the british government which does support what you describe, the british public on the other hand...I am not so sure.

 

I thought it had already been established that Hawking's "boycott" was actually just a matter of him not showing up due to health problems.

 

They key point is, if that is your definition of "aggressive racists" there are tons of them all over the middle east.

I don't defend Israel's discriminatory policies, but don't pretend their neighbors are better examples of tolerance of other races or religions.

 

That was the initial false claim.

Hawking expressed his reasons for not attending in a letter:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/09/world/meast/israel-hawking-boycott-controversy/index.html

 

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

 

No, I think you'll find plenty of ethnic conflict present outside of Israel.

Some of the longest running conflicts in the Middle East involve prejudice between Sunnis and Shiites.

Israel may be aggressive, but what they do pales in comparison to the strife we've seen between Iraq and Iran in times past. Even in modern Iraq, there has been a lot of conflict between the two sects.

Beyond that, it seems that nearly every multiethnic society with a significant Muslim population seems to have this problem of ethnic strife.

The conflict in Syria even seems to have an ethnic component as well. Assad's regime is largely Shiite, while the rebels are mostly Sunni.

If anything, Muslims spend more time killing each other than any other group kills them.

 

The different interpretations of Islam are like our Roman Catholics and Protestants, as you know. The zionists, like Hitler, are occupying someone elses' territory, as you know. Strife tends to appear in every country the US attacks to give your masters oil-profits, as you know, and you or your puppets interfere everywhere, as you also know. The US has killed more Muslims than anyone, ever, as you of course know very well.

 

Nope. That would go to the Ottoman Empire.

 

I am not convinced. Prove it.

 

It's no different from how Christians spend more time killing each other than any other group kills them.

The Sunni-Shia divide is the source of a lot of it.

Here's one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War

 

You felt a need to say you believe 'if anything' Muslims spent more time killing each other than anyone else. Anyway that is all pretty complicated and the reality that the ME did not have the opportunity to work itself out when under colonialism and all the false borders and so on and much more would need to be taken into consideration.

However lolo is sadly right on one thing. Israel has continued the German ethnic Nationialist way which resulted in the holocaust though of course the early zionists were likely just trying to get their own little 'Jewish' Germany.

It is a really important point. If they could move out of that there might be hope.

Of course added to that is the holocaust but it does not take away that Israeli politics are ethnic nationalism and that is what European politics in the 19th and first half of the 20th C were and what led to the holocaust so he does have a point.

While it may be true that there are other ethnic nationalist states, Israel likes to be seen of as a Western State and get support as if she were going by Western values. Ethnic Nationalism is not acceptable in Europe.

 

In Iraq outside of the initial invasion by coalition forces and altercations here and there all deaths were sectarian related, the Iran Iraq was cost a million lives.

 

I see where you're coming from, although ethnic nationalism definitely seems to be rising in Greece.

Much of Eastern Europe struggles with it. The independence of Kosovo was essentially little more than an ethnic nationalist movement, while the Bosnian War was rooted in ethnic nationalism as well.

That being said, Western Europe is at least less that way.

 

Absolutely. For instance take modern Iraq. Shiites got key seats in govt bodies including law enforcement agencies. And now local Sunnis have pretty hard conditions there. Same war different place.

 

Thank you.

Eastern Europe maybe, I was talking of Western as that is who Israel likes to suggest she belongs to.

It is not impossible that the West could again become embroiled in ethnic nationalism, indeed my experience is that pro Israelis try to support this, by such things as supporting the BNP or encouraging hatred of Muslims. It would be hell on earth and see the same inhumanity as before. We are mistaken imo in supporting it anywhere and in general Europe does everything in her power to nip it in the bud. This is always supported by European Jews but for some reason they often blind themselves to the reality that Israel is a 19th first half 20C ethnic Nationalist Western European State like Germany. A lot do not, thankfully and are her biggest critics.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a big fan of Israel, but I just have my own wariness toward the Islamic World as well.

I'd really just like to see the world evolve past religion, but I realize that's not very likely.

 

Well the Islamic world has been stuck in colonialism and dictatorships in the main and needs time to throw off oppression and find themselves including their Muslim identity which has been pretty wrecked in the past hundred years. This is an article you may find interesting

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.hirsh.html

To the best of my knowledge possibly most or certainly a significant number of Muslims had pretty much given it up round the 1960's, or certainly did not give it preference to the idea of democracy and political freedom. Seems it was politics which brought things back and that politics was related to Israel.

The West has made a heck of a mess and people need time to recover. John Keane, a political philosopher says that Christianity had a big part in bringing together democracy in the West and people would do well not to get so alarmed and give people time.

Personally I find the Western Sponsored Salafi/radicals the most concerning although even with most Salafi's they're just busy trying to be more pure than anyone could ever be.

However we cannot expect people to be just, democratic and so on until we become so ourselves and until we stop supporting what is not.

 

Oh I definitely agree that some of the authoritarian regimes we've supported have only worsened things.

The problem is that there is now a fertile environment for so-called "democratic uprisings" involving Salafist groups. Much of the Arab Spring appears to be this way. Egypt went from bad to worse, and Libya seems to be going in the same direction. Syria may also become this way.

So, I'm not so sure we should support these rebels either.

Overall, we need to stop buying so much oil from places like Saudi Arabia. The more money that goes to Salafist regimes, the more their ideology gets exported into other countries.

It's kind of funny how they're all about overthrowing secular dictators, yet they never suggest the same of their own monarchies or theocracies.

It's not about freedom. It's about wanting power to oppress others in your own religious way. Minority rights are essentially nonexistent in a lot of the affected areas.

And since the only other option appears to be regimes that oppress for the sake of our own profit, it's not surprising we support those.

Granted, now, we're engaging in trying to prop up pseudo-democracies that are highly vulnerable to the manipulations of Salafists and Iranians.

It's a lose-lose situation overall, so we really just need to get out of the area.

 

And the point I'm trying to make to you is that you have admitted that Hawking has made serious allegations against other countries, not just Israel. Therefore your contention that Israel has been singled out is just more typical whining from Israel's amen corner.

The problem is that you have people like Ariel Sharon making statements like:

Then you have Olmert, insulting our Secretary of State

So that's what Israel does. They bully people around. They bully the Palestinians around. But it does not stop their. The bully our elected officials around. THEY EVEN BULLY OUT SECRETARY OF STATE AROUND.

Then people like you from the "amen corner" come in here and whine that Israel is being singled out for "harsh" punishment by Hawking. What you are putting forward is absurd. plz

 

When I was in my 20's the only country which had Wahhabism or Salafism was Saudi Arabia - what caused it to spread?

Please try and read that article.

Minority rights have been traditional in Muslim societies. What do you think has changed this?

I am strong against all Al Qaeda type activity. The West is supporting that in Syria. However that does not mean that the Syrian uprising did not begin with a genuine sound interest in democratic rights.

Libya we were lied about. I had watched enough live to be pretty sure about that before it began.

The West's 'war or terror' has created a great deal of arab extremism but it would be crazy to imagine that that is what most arabs want.

They have to find their own way.

It remains that while we, who are the powerful, support what is not democratic and just and what harms them, who are we to condemn them (en masse)?

 

I did. And I agree with most of the observations. I understand that the general message seems to be that the more we get involved, the more it tends to help grow extremism.

It's why I want us to withdraw from there in general. I know that's not going to happen, but c'est la vie.

Compared to the way Christianity was a long time ago, yes. Compared to modern standards, not so much. Even in somewhat progressive Islamic countries like Turkey, it's not the same.

Maybe it did, but whatever it started out with is now gone. If Assad falls, they'll just put in a theocratic group to replace him with.

Most revolutions result in worse leaders than their predecessors. America basically got lucky with its revolution, and it didn't take long for abuse of power to establish itself in our system too.

Extremism isn't necessarily what they want, but they definitely have a different view of rights than us. Things like apostasy laws don't crop up without some amount of public support. They don't exactly view things like criticism of religion the same either.

No argument here. I'd like us to keep a good distance from them, and that includes scrutinizing immigration from these areas more closely in some respects.

 

LOL, when was it in dispute? He made allegations about a bunch of countries, but he actually applied a double standard to Israel when he joined the boycott, while his own tax pound has financed and is still financing the murder of people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria now and he is complacently doing nothing about it. What a disgrace

 

Is that really all you got from that article? I would have had no need to give you an article to say that.

why were we involved in the first place? Forget oil...or if you must

Oops looks like someone did not act justly.

http://jfjfp.com/?p=42480

Looks to me like they were quite prepared to act reasonably if reasonably treated by those more powerful. Actions have consequences.

or from the article I posted

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.hirsh.html

If we do not look at what we have done and are doing, what gives us the right to feel superior just because we can kill anyone we want.



Why are we there? We can buy oil without annihilating people. We could even buy oil and have good relations with people.

Without question Islam has historically treated minorities better than the West whether it was being Christian or not. It is not yet 70 years since the holocaust and in case you do not know prior to that the West was indulging in putting people into 'human zoos'. There was a Eugenicist in the US prior to WW2 who suggested putting American Jews and other 'undesirables' into camps saying the problem would be solved in a generation - with sterialisation.

So what changed Muslims who before were much more progressive?........? It was the Holocaust which changed us.

That does not mean that there is not the mentality for a just democracy in Syria....and that is an interesting one because originally I thought that was the one that needed support. The rebels were not into killing until hoards of Al Qaeda types who had been thrown out of Iraq came in through Turkey I think. Now what on earth brought them there?

America had as the World Power the opportunity to spread justice, human rights and democracy across the world. Instead she spread tyranny. I don't rate America very high as a democracy any more - nor the UK.

Who is 'they'. There is no 'they' unless you are stereotyping all the people together.

Well you can put that down to the US's biggest friend in the ME, Saudi Arabia. Egypt didn't want them either and kept putting them in jail but the Saud's whooped it up and got them to teach there ....... and then of course the US thought these people who were then let out of arab jails to go and fight in Afghanistan were the best people to train and fund to fight the Russians most certainly in preference to democratic Afghans. It gave the green light for the Saudi's teaching Afghan Refugee Children the most extreme religious fanaticism which ignored their Afghan heritage and a basic education. America has been strongly involved in creating this extremism which has been set loose on the world.

What goes around comes around.

What you are speaking of is not the history of Islam which you would have known if you had read the article I left.

You'd be better off concentrating on things like human rights, equality and justice for all rather than stereotyping people. How'd you like it if that was what the US had done to you when you arrived.

 

I never said we were superior, just different.

Might will always control things. That's just human nature. The best that can be hoped for is establishing some level of rights, but even the most humanitarian governments still profit from war. Of all places, Norway profits heavily from arms trade, for example.

The only difference really is that the largest countries do the dirty work while the smaller ones can pretend to be more virtuous.

That's as far as society goes.

It's just the same game that has been played since antiquity and will continue to be played as long as humans exist. I'd like us to get less involved, but if and when we do, someone else will take our place, like China or Russia.

Fair enough, but I'm not really as concerned about the past as I am the present.

The wonderful nightlife

My signature is a demonstration of what power is really about. It corrupts. And any nation that reaches our level of prominence will engage in oppression. How we compare to previous top powers isn't really that bad though. If we gave the kind of weapons we have today to some of the powers of the past, I think you'd see a lot more death and destruction than we already have.

Sometimes stereotypes are true.

I skimmed it, so sue me.

I get kind of tired of all the blame America stuff after a while, because it pretends that the people we interact with have no will of their own.