The fight for Brexit is only just beginning

If the vote of the people is to be ignored for the referendum will it also be ignored at the next general election?
Imagine going in to vote and there is only one box to check to make sure the Plebs get it right.

 

Aw, c'mon--it's not that simple. What you say about the elites wanting to thwart Brexit is true. They don't have to rub shoulders with the cheap labor they've been importing while at the same time making money off the close association with Europe. But there are many Brits, especially the young, and arguably a majority of the public, who don't want to leave the EU noe they sense the coming problems.

Absolutely true about the liars. I've been watching Sky News, the BBC, and CNN International off and on for months on Brexit. With hundreds of MPs, there is an almost endless supply of liars to infect the public debate.

The truth the Brexiters want to keep hidden is the difficulty the country will have securing trade deals. Canada and Australia--"the colonies"--are free traders with a huge advantage the Brits don't have: access to raw materials. Even so, it's been an uphill battle for those two countries to get good trade agreements.

What's going to be left of the country after Brexit? It looks fairly certain Scotland will rventually go. Northern Ireland? I wouldn't bet against them going, too.

Corbyn is so awful he has little credibility as the leader of a government-in-waiting. The Conservatives deserve a long stretch in opposition, but who would replace them? Labour is in meltdown itself.

The older Conservatives behind Brexit are going to make enemies of a generation of young Brits. When the economy tanks, if there is a no deal Brexit, old people will still have their pensions, NHS, and high real estate values. Younger Brits will see a loss of personal opportunities to live and work in the EU and suffer the loss of jobs at home.

 

Do the Conservatives want to fight sn election with May as the leader?

 

According to a recent poll, were a Brexit referendum to be held again, more people would vote to leave than stay. I wonder if this is the reason why the "People's Vote"/Second Referendum (articulated and led by the awful Blair) has now collapsed and that Parliament has de facto ruled that possibility out.

Yes, I think the inability to reach effective trade deals on its own is a concern. But my sense is that this is more due to poor negotiating skills by the UK - something May's government is appalling at - and therefore is a matter that can be resolved over time with a better standard of government/negotiator in place. Having said that any Brit government running off to reach a trade deal with the US based on diluting existing standards (chlorinated chickens etc) and more extensive privatisation of the NHS is going to run into major problems from the populace. What we really need is a government - of whatever complexion - that returns to working on behalf of the population as a whole and not just the business/banking community. Possibly this is wishful thinking on my behalf...

Agreed. I think this, in fact, is one of the factors that make matters so complex. Or, at least, the threat of independence. On the other hand, as we have seen in Greece and in Catalonia versus Spain - and in France with Macron and the Yellow Vests - the use of appalling levels of force to subdue protests is the common theme. We might witness that here too.

It's a real conundrum, I agree. A general election is coming sooner rather than later and we'll then see the feeling of anger and rebelliousness that is smouldering away - thanks to the epic, tragic-cum-Gilbert & Sullivan drama that has been performed in Westminster on a nightly basis.

I'm not sure that is the case. The nation is split on a North - South basis, where parts of the North see huge numbers of people living in relative squalor, whereas parts of the South remains relatively comfortable if not overflowing with milk and honey. This is due to four decades of neoliberal economic ideology that has ravaged the country in a what I would call a "gush up" wealth racket. Personally, I doubt any nation can endure such fundamental inequalities for very long without fragmenting ---- or worse. That's what our political class have delivered since Thatcher came to power.

Hang the fcuking lot of them, I say...

 

May's history. Her days are numbered. In the weeks if not days, I reckon.

Gawd knows who'll come out as the new leader of the Tories. I can't see one person who deserves to be given a pint of water let alone a vote. Corbyn's history too, imo, but he may survive longer. My guess is that John McDonnell will take over the labour Party in due course.

Having said all that I harbour a suspicion that British politics has been changed for all time and that there are now likely to be several new parties emerging. The days of a two-party state are Polly gone, I suspect.

 

Roll out the tumbrells? Orf with their heads??

 

With Corbyn as the leader of the opposition ? Maybe.....

 

If so, that poll's an outlier.

The trend since the Brexit vote result has been for support for remaining in the EU to increase:

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...n-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

 

I don't see a change from the status quo unless there is an accompanying change to the electoral system.

A first past the post election process mitigates towards a two party system unfortunately.

 

A voice of common sense. People fear that the EU will not trade with the UK. No agreement is necessary. Just trade. If a trade agreement makes sense in the future, negotiate one. The EU is being stubborn only because it wants to prevent Brexit or, at worst, punish the UK.

The Irish border issue is just politics. It means nothing like all things political. The true disaster is putting one's country under the management of an imperial power, regardless of how democratic it is. I think it makes perfect sense to move the capital of the UK back to London from Brussels.

 

Yep, I know and have posted on this forum this apparent fact a number of times over the last several months.

But this, apparently, is the latest poll implying, I think, that many, many people have got absolutely freakin' frustrated with the EU over the backstop and now would vote to leave too - to punish them.

Who knows how accurate the poll is? Not I.

But I do have to acknowledge that just three or four weeks ago the People's Vote advocates were beating the drums every day on TV news, whereas now that incessant carping mob has been dropped from sight - and Parliament made clear last night that it is not an option either --- presumably on a number of grounds but not least, I imagine, that should it return an even greater majority for Leave, their hands would be nailed to voting for Brexit.

 

Those who presume themselves to have been 'born to rule' have decided, and every possible means of public communication will be brought in to spread their word. 'democracy' has become an irrelevance to be fondly remembered.

 

Which poll is it please ? My Google-fu is weak today and I keep finding:

• Polls showing Remain as the preferred option
• Polls of readers of specific newspapers which unsurprisingly have results which align with the readership

The People's Vote were very vocal yesterday complaining about Labour abstaining on the second referendum vote.

 

I would argue that virtually every major European company wants to sell and trade with the UK whether the leaders at the EU like it or not. Negotiation is never easy, we knew the EU would play hardball, I just expected Britain to have more guts than it is currently showing! We have far too many MPs voting in the commons on their own beliefs as oppose to the will of their electorate.

I think any MP, from a 'Leave' constituency who voted for No Deal to be removed and to Extend Article 50 should be removed from office.

 

If your MP's are anything like our congress members, they should all be removed from office. It is up to the voters to do that.

 

Proportional representation? Who knows, this could be the thing that forces that change. Fundamentally, however, the problem lies with Parliamentary representatives who do not represent their constituents but rather their own preferred personal slant on things - or gawd forbid, what benefits them in the pocket or in business after they leave Parliament.

 

Amazing. Astonishing, in fact. I agree with virtually every word of your post.

Which only proves that anything is possible given time...

 

Question ... do you havy any clue about the EU institutions and who has / can what say and decide etc.?
Do you have any clue about WTO rules and what this means all in detail for the UK ... and for the EU of course too?
Do you have any clue about EU rules which will be further infecting any trade with you, because these EU companies have to follow them by law?

 

Exactly, Cerb. The elite always ensure they have control in one form or another. Having a handful of massively wealthy and influential individuals owning the media is central to how control is effected.

As for democracy, I distantly remember Zbig Brezisnki saying (I think it was in his book The Grand Chessboard?) that democracy had proved itself to be unworkable and that control would be imposed in future. At the time, it was an astonishing thing to say (early 1990's as I recall) and I was duly astonished.

But that's the way things developed in the US and that's the way things are now happening in the UK (likewise the Rule of Law I might add).

 

Strip ... proposal:

Make a non binding official second referendum about Brexit and you will see what majority the Brexit still has or not has!

With non binding I mean ... no matter how the result is, Brexit Yes of 1. referendum stay only valid!

So you and all others in the UK will see what the core of democracy (in theory) has as opinion now, 2 years later about the topic and the complete issue and their clowns in Parliament!

 

Sorry can't remember. I'm not even sure I even heard who ran the poll as I was only listening in background. But it was referenced on Sky TV News earlier this week.

 

Recent polls suggest stay wins 53-47. Still, a referendum is a crap shoot especially when the question itself could make a difference.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/​

Canada and Australia trade preferred access to their raw materials and still have a difficult time getting good trade deals. The UK is a small market with few raw materials of interest to anyone.

I don't think the depth of feeling against the Conservatives and their older Brexit supporters will be evident in the next election. In any normal time, a government as divided and incompetent as this one would be faced with voters turning them out in favor of an opposition licking their chops. Labour under Corbyn is awful. I ran across the counterpart in Canada in the New Democratic Party. They live their lived opposed to things.

Thatcher made an existing, growing problem worse and there is indeed a bill that may come due for ignoring economic problems. Like this country, the UK also has a generational problem where the young are struggling.

Same here. The meltdown in UK politics should be an object lesson for Americans, but I doubt we're receptive to the education.

 

No, but it is clear to me that, if the EU has that tight a grip on the member countries, those countries will come to regret it. The UK should get out of there are soon as possible.

 

I have believed this since the EU was formed. I think all the member states will come to regret it. The EU even wants its own military. That should put a lump in the throats of the member states.

What the EU has become was certainly predictable. Government always seeks more power and control. It is human nature.

 

Brexit was a massive mistake that was made when the British people were high on racist xenophobia centered around the influx at the time of refugees into Europe, and therefore into England as well. Obviously they should vote on it a second time and not make this great mistake based on that lone referendum taken at such a time.