Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Thingamabob, Aug 13, 2018.
Try showing some actual records of the imaginary peace offer. Or actual records of MacArthur's imaginary memo about the imaginary peace offer.
You should have more self-respect than to post such disingenuous nonsense.
Unkotare is Japanese-centric, just so the reader understands his bias.
Yes, the cities had extensive military targets as well as civilian populations.
Good Grief! That's what you are talking about?!?
You had been describing some sort of peace feelers from the Japanese government.
Those were peace feelers from independent third parties who had no authority to speak for the Japanese government.
The US didn't ignore those peace feelers. The US assessed (correctly) that they were from independent third parties with no authority to speak for the Japanese government. But the US pursued them anyway, in the hopes that one of them would evolve into an actual contact with the Japanese government.
As soon as the Japanese government learned of these peace feelers, they cut them all off. I think in one of the cases they even ordered the guy who came up with the peace proposal to kill himself, and he did.
It wasn't the US government who was ignoring these peace feelers.
If you had read any history books about the end of WWII you would have already known this.
"By 1945 Hiroshima had a civilian population of almost 300,000 and was an important military center, containing about 43,000 soldiers."
"The city had a population of about 300,000 and was an important military center with about 43,000 soldiers."
"About 140,000 +/- 10,000 (including 20,000 soldiers) were dead by the end of December 1945"
"but wartime evacuations had reduced that number this summer morning to about 280,000 civilians, 43,000 military personnel and 20,000 Korean forced laborers and volunteer workers. Hiroshima housed the headquarters of the Japanese army's Second General [Army]."
"Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan."
"Out of 140,000 deaths, about 20,000 were considered to be those of the military service men."
"Hiroshima had a civilian population of almost 300,000 and was an important military center, containing about 43,000 soldiers"
"There were 43,000 soldiers based in Hiroshima, and Nagasaki was an industrial city that had turned out the torpedoes used at Pearl Harbor. Its shipyards had built some of Japan's biggest warships."
"The bomb exploded high over the industrial valley of Nagasaki, almost midway between the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, in the south, and the Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works (Torpedo Works), in the north, the two principal targets of the city."
"The hurriedly-targeted weapon ended up detonating almost exactly between two of the principal targets in the city, the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works to the south, and the Mitsubishi-Urakami Torpedo Works to the north."
"Mitsubishi-Urakami Torpedo Works, 1,400 feet north of ground zero, Nagasaki. Torpedoes used in the attack on Pearl Harbor were built here."
Your 'democrat playbook' denial of sources rather than addressing points only serves to reveal your moral insecurity about all this. As it should.
You're losing an argument with yourself. Your sense of guilt is palpable. You should give yourself a break.
I did not deny sources.
I did address points.
Japan did not attempt to talk to the US about surrendering until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.
Both A-bombs were dropped on military targets.
No. I'm pointing out the fact that both A-bombs were dropped on military targets, and the fact that Japan did not attempt to surrender until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.
Guilt? Don't be silly.
Peace feelers from third parties that have no authority to speak for the Japanese government hardly count for anything -- especially when the Japanese government cuts off those peace feelers as soon as it learns of them.
You most certainly did. You smell just like those democrats who can't talk about abortion without denying that the unborn are alive. Exactly the same.
I don't think you are as ignorant and naive as such a statement suggests. I think you are trying hard to let yourself sleep at night.
No I didn't. I fully agree that the peace feelers referred to in that article really happened.
But, since I have actually read history books, I understand that those peace feelers were not from the Japanese government, but rather were from independent third parties with no authority to speak for the Japanese government.
I also understand that the US eagerly pursued those feelers despite understanding that they were from people who had no authority to speak for the Japanese government, because the US government hoped that one of them might lead to a real contact with the Japanese government.
And I understand that despite the US' best efforts in pursuing these illegitimate peace feelers, they ultimately came to nothing, because the Japanese government itself did not cooperate with the peace feelers.
My pointing out facts does not suggest ignorance or naivete at all.
It shows that I have actually read history books and therefore know what I'm talking about.
I sleep just fine.
You have read online discussion boards and at most a few book jackets. This is very obvious.
Thou dost protest too much...
Oh, so that's what fdr meant when he dismissed MacArthur's 40-page report about it with "Mac is our greatest general and worst politician."?
Wrong. I have read numerous history books about the end of WWII. That's why I actually know what I am talking about.
I've recommended a couple of these books to you before. Both of them are required reading for an understanding of Japan's actions at the end of WWII.
You should take my advice and finally read them.
"Japan's Decision to Surrender" by Robert J.C. Butow
"Japan's Longest Day" by The Pacific War Research Society
No I don't. I merely make direct responses to your untrue statements.
Most likely there was no such report, and no comment from FDR about the nonexistent report.
If it did happen, FDR was probably observing that MacArthur wasted 40 pages of valuable paper over nothing.
If true, then why is it that Japan GOVT obeys the USA GOVT? Yes and it works on behalf of the USA GOVT??. We can also look at NATO in terms of how very often, I repeat, very often Japan supports action the USA takes around the world.
If you are correct here, then clearly, someone forgot to tell Japan that they "won"!!
Deny. Divert. You are a model democrat.
Don't bother lying. Your ignorance is laughably obvious to a real historian.
I have already provided all of the necessary facts in this discussion.
What an absurd thing to say.
Separate names with a comma.