The US did not win the war against Japan in WW II.

Is there anyone here who claims it was for "nothing at all"? The war ended ..... isn't that reason enough?

Sounds exciting. I've stood on many spots and walked many paths in the footsteps of my Viking ancestors but I don't get much of a kick out of it. It's not as though their spirits seep from the ground and up my pant leg affording me supernatural power. I've viewed Victoria Falls during the revolution from the very spot Cecil Rhodes did the same. Been to the Wailing Wall. Walked along the earth where Mahatma Gandhi slid along in his sandals. Been through the gates of Arbeit Macht Frei at Oswiecim. Stood where Ho Chi Mihn greeted his people. Been blessed by the Pope at the Vatican. Travelled the road to Mandalay and climbed the step of the Kyauktawgyi temple. Rubbed the nose of the Lion of Singapore. Trundled along the road through Khmer Rouge territory passing by the killing fields. Been to the battlefield at Mafeking. Greeted the Queen as she alighted at Gatow Flygplatz in West Berlin. Spent Christmas at the place Jim Thompson disappeared in the Cameron Highlands. Was in Iran during the revolution. In Beirut during the civil war. Traded gunfire with the Vietcong. Stood on the deck of the Aurora in Leningrad. And so much more.

 

Sounds like your life is full..........of....

 

I wouldn't know about that.

Spin? What do you have against telling the truth? I've spelt it out. You don't believe the truth? Did you check my facts and dates? Here's the problem: The war ended and that should be celebrated. But, the American national ego needs to believe that they bullied their way through to DEMAND their own terms. So ..... the lie (oh yes, a lie not an exaggeration) was concocted whereby the Japanese condition was offered by the U.S. rather than admit the condition was insisted upon by the Japanese themselves. The original question is once again up for discussion - are you satisfied that peace was achieved or are you dissatisfied that Washington chickened out of their own bully-bully demands? Well? Which is it?

This a trick question, isn't it. Ask an American and he will tell you what he was told. Ask a Japanese and he will tell you the truth. The Japanese (who were there) went home and the rest listened in on the radio. They are all satisfied because they know the truth ... their Condition was met! Now you guys are satisfied only because you were duped into believing a fairy tale. The reason you are upset now is because I am telling you what really happened and the fairy tale is losing its pixie dust.

Lucky? Your words: "Kennedy ..... got the Russians to remove the missiles" Another example of someone trying to take credit without deserving it. Tell me now, you don't know why Krustjev removed his missiles? It had nothing to do with "luck". Kennedy caved in to Kruschev's demands. You didn't see the condition he put upon Kennedy? The whole drama was a win/win for the Soviet Union but (as usual) it was spun by Washington for the benefit of the Americans. The rest of the world knows the whole story, you apparently do not.

 

Foolish on your part.

 

The reason the U.S. did not force an unconditional surrender was that they didn't have a third bomb.

 

If true, I apologize. Sounds like a lot of stuff in one life.

 

I spent several years as a backpacker and I travelled around the globe overland traversing every continent except South America. I was also a soldier for 3 years. It is all true and I accept your apology.

 

Actually, the occupation was done to help prevent the mistakes of WWI.

This time the decision was made to occupy each of the loosing nations, and force them to accept a government more in keeping with peaceful intents. In Japan, it was largely in going back to many of the reforms of the Meiji Restoration, along with giving the Diet real power. Emperor Showa had his role changed, from that of a Supreme Ruler with ultimate power into a model more like that of England. With an Emperor that "Reigned but did not Rule".

And even this is not unusual in their culture. For almost 700 years under the Shogunate and before the Meiji Restoration the Emperor was little more than a figurehead to the military and titled rulers. But this time instead of the Lords and Samurai of the Shogunate or the Zaibatsu and Taisei Yokusanka of the end of the Imperial era the real power was in the Diet and the Constitution.

And the Emperor is still far more than a figurehead. In Japanese culture even today, the Emperor is still in many ways the heart of the Empire. They have little real power, but their influence can still change the country if they decided to do so. Not unlike the role of the Monarchy in the UK. If the Queen made a proclamation that they should join or abstain from a conflict, it would be hard for Parliament to go against them because they still have significant influence among the people.

And under Emperor Akihito things are going to become very interesting. Emperor Akihito has already announced his abdication next year. At that point, his oldest son Prince Naruhito will assume the throne. But since the Constitution does not allow for a ruling Empress this causes a problem, because the Crown Prince only has a single daughter. Watching the twists and turns of the future of the dynasty has been interesting, and it would not matter if the Imperial Throne had no power in the country.

 

The Japanese signed an unconditional surrender and that is what they got

 

The Japanese signed an unconditional surrender. The text of the surrender document has been linked to. Its objective fact.

 

Known as the "Instrument of Surrender". And it was just what Potsdam ordered, an "unconditional surrender" of their armed forces.

Then later...

https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=80&page=transcript

Nowhere was the government dissolved. The government itself did not surrender. It remains in place even unto this day. All that was demanded and did surrender "unconditionally" was their military.

Where was it ever stated in Potsdam, or in the Instrument of Surrender itself that they had to surrender unconditionally?

 

You do know one would hope that when you win a war you can impose or accept any conditions of surrender that you choose to. Even change those at will.

 

Not in this case where that exact condition was already denied:

August 9. Emperor Hirohito offered peace ”on the condition that he as head of state was maintained”

August 10. The U.S. rejected Hirohito proposal, stating, “only unconditional surrender would do.”

Four days later on August 14. President Truman gives up the idea of demanding unconditional surrender and gives in to Hirohito’s condition.

So, as far as the surrender by Washington's own terms, the U.S. did an about-face, capitulated, and bowed to Japan's defiance. What you or I think might be acceptable or worthwhile is completely irrelevant. We (you and I) didn't make the terms. Japan gave the U.S the finger and Washington backed down.

 

Which is a lie.

Prove that. You never have yet and I do not expect you to prove it now.

 

And the emperor was too stupid to get that in writing? My god that is hilarious

 

Which is a lie.

Prove that. You never have yet and I do not expect you to prove it now.

 

The napalm was targeted at Japanese war industry.

Well, two anyway.

It's a good weapon.

What "no napalm" treaty?

 

Except, Japan didn't succeed in getting their condition met.

No. We flatly refused Japan's condition.

Correct so far, but.....

That is incorrect. When the US rejected Japan's request, Japan's response was to surrender anyway.

It's also not true. We did not relent, and Japan surrendered without the condition.

Not quite. Japan was asking that we allow Hirohito to retain unlimited dictatorial power.

What we said was that Hirohito was going to be subordinate to MacArthur.

That is incorrect. The US did not relent. Japan backed away from their demand that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power. Hirohito was subordinate to MacArthur.

Except, we didn't back down, and Japan surrendered anyway.

The US never relented.

No. What happened was the Japanese condition was rejected by the US, and Japan surrendered anyway.

Except, their condition was rejected.

On the condition that he retain unlimited dictatorial power.

Stating that Hirohito was going to be subordinate to MacArthur.

No. Japan gave up their demand that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power. Hirohito was subordinate to MacArthur.

That is incorrect. We did not allow Hirohito to retain unlimited dictatorial power. Hirohito was subordinate to MacArthur.

Not really.

 

http://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Japan's_Surrender_Communiqués

Japan's offer:
"The Japanese Government are ready to accept the terms enumerated in the joint declaration which was issued at Potsdam on July 26, 1945, by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China, and later subscribed by the Soviet Government with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler."

Our reply:
"From the moment of surrender the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate the surrender terms."

 

1). On August 9 Japan said they would only surrender on the condition that the Emperor would remain in power, ie. on the condition that Hirohito as head of state was maintained.

2). On August 10 the U.S. rejected Japan’s condition, stating that only unconditional surrender would do.

3). On August 14 (4 days after the U.S. rejected Japan’s proposal) the U.S. gave in to Hirohito’s condition and accepted it.

* It is your contention that the U.S. refined its’ demand sometime between August 10 and August 14 but there is no record of it. That is probably because it never happened. The U.S. simply thought Japan was bluffing when it said it would fight on unless its’ condition was accepted but by August 14 realized it was no bluff. Japan was willing to fight to the death so the U.S. caved in to Japan’s condition. The U.S. did not achieve its goal.

 

Show me number three in writing

 

Here:



You can't fix stupid or those with an agenda that is completely whacked out. Listened to a discussion once where a college Professor was convinced 9-11 was actually perpetrated by the George Bush and a fleet of alien ships so that the Bush family could stay in power and turn America into a dictatorship that he would rule for eternity. You know, a "4th Reich". When asked why he still wasn't President then and how Obama got into power he simply stated Bush was in power and we are being tricked. Any day now, Bush was going to nuke the United States and fly off in his spaceship. This is a guy with Masters degree in Architecture and a professor.

Just remember, these people walk among us in the real world.

 

No. On the condition that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power.

Well, I'd quibble about your use of the term unconditional, but close enough.

We rejected Japan's offer, and told them that Hirohito was going to be subordinate to MacArthur.

That is incorrect. On August 14, Japan gave up and accepted all of the surrender terms that we imposed on them.

The last modification of our terms was the message that you date to August 10. That message rejected Japan's request and told them that Hirohito was going to be subordinate to MacArthur.

There is very much a record of us rejecting Japan's request and telling them that Hirohito would be subordinate to MacArthur.

http://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Japan's_Surrender_Communiqués

"From the moment of surrender the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers"

That is incorrect. On August 14, Japan gave up and accepted all of the surrender terms that we imposed on them -- including the one that made Hirohito subordinate to MacArthur.

 

You can ignore the facts if you like. That's between you and your conscience.

 

The USA did win. The USA beat them bastards on the seas, beat them on the ground, and when they would not own up to losing and surrender we nuked them bastards, and only then, finally, them dumb bastards surrendered.