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Tired of 47% not paying any taxes? Shame on us...

Discussion in 'Budget & Taxes' started by Corfieldb, Oct 27, 2011.

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  1. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Can you elaborate on this point. What you are suggesting is to implement more central planning by a State instead of by individual liberty. Our Founding Fathers specifically enumerated a republican form of government for our Union of several States. Our Bill of Rights is an example of our republican and federal form of Government.

    Promoting and providing for the general welfare could include solving official poverty in our republic in a market friendly manner that conforms to existing laws and existing infrastructure.

    I find your point of view disingenuous in that you claim to care about freedom while condoning a lack of freedom by advocating the coercive use of force of the State to implement public policy decisions, that are supposed to promote and provide for the general welfare of the United States.

    Why do you believe simply subsidizing the least efficient to not provide labor input to the economy is illogical or inefficient? From my perspective, we could be lowering that cost to the private sector by enabling more motivated labor to actively seek an efficiency wage.

    I am not sure why you believe that simply hiring labor to create a surplus would be any more effective with any inefficiency in the circulation of money in those money based markets. In other words, why would simply hiring some persons eliminate the phenomenon of official poverty without also eliminating a simple poverty of money when due to a lack of gainful employment in the market for labor?
     
    danielpalos, Dec 30, 2011
    #126
  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    No, I cannot, because I do not know which point you are referring to.
    I made a lot of points in that chunk you quoted, which one are you referring to?
    Quote the one you are asking about and I will elaborate.

    Where have I claimed to care about freedom?
    I certainly do not condone the freedom for one individual to take the freedom of another.
    Do you believe that individuals should have such a freedom?

    How is hiring people to work somehow more forceful that hiring the same people to do nothing?
    Where is the force involved in one that is not involved in the other?

    You know, I used to think that you were some kind of messed up socialist with a few very none-socialist views,
    but now you sound like some sort of messed up anarchist with a few very none-anarchist views.
    Do you believe that anarchy is possible, do you believe it is desirable?

    If the state uses some force or threat of it to provide for the general welfare of the United States (as in its citizens), then what is the issue?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Dec 30, 2011
    #127
  3. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Because if the problem you are trying to solve is the conditions of the poor,
    then it is more effective for you to simultaneously put money into the hands of the poor,
    while also decreasing the price of goods through increased productivity

    It is more efficient to do that, as opposed to simply putting money into their hands,
    as simply doing so without increasing productivity would cause prices to increase.

    It can be said that the increased demand would also cause private sector employers to hire more,
    but the factor here that I have yet to mention is profits,
    which the public sector does not require.

    If you still don't understand what I'm saying,
    I can go into more detail with an example.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Dec 30, 2011
    #128
  4. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    What percent of a companies gross earnings is profit? What do companies do with that profit?

    An inefficient public sector "business" will waste more that most private companies make in profits.

    You want to reduce the cost of goods and services. A central planner will demand a 10% reduction in price, with no understanding if that is achievable, without sacrificing quality and performance. Competition drives prices lower, while increasing performance, and maintaining, or improving, quality.
     
    Not Amused, Dec 31, 2011
    #129
  5. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Our supreme law of the land specifically delegates the power to tax to our federal Congress. It is why paying our taxes is legal and morally acceptable.
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #130
  6. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Why do you believe the poor would not self-select and save that cost to both the private sector and the State? How does your view account for any rate of unemployment, whether natural or not, above zero percent. In other words, it is disingenuous to claim you have any solution at all, without also solving for that phenomena.

    You have not explained why it would be less efficient to simply pay the least efficient, to not provide that average "drag" on our economy by choosing to compete in an oversupplied market for labor?
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #131
  7. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As is well known, the rich believe only the poor should pay taxes, and since the rich own the government, they mostly get what they want, except that it kills off their labour force.
     
    Iolo, Dec 31, 2011
    #132
  8. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    You seem to be resorting to special pleading and stereotyping that a centrally planning HR department cannot put the right people in the right places at the right time.

    All we need do is solve for a natural rate of unemployment by being moral enough to bear true witness to our own laws. It can be as easy to achieve and administer as our current regime of minimum wage laws are now.
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #133
  9. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    In what manner would any private sector be negatively affected, by solving for a poverty of money in money based markets?
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #134
  10. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    It can't.

    By what, paying illegal aliens minimum wage? Paying the unemployed minimum wage? I have no idea what law you think is being violated.

    Neither statement addressed my comments.
     
    Not Amused, Dec 31, 2011
    #135
  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Today, average corporate profit margin is somewhere between 10-15%,
    and can range anywhere from 50% all the way into negative numbers for individual companies or sectors.
    Overall, they are on the rise.

    Those profits are either reinvested into the company, invested into some other company as in loaned, a small portion may go to charity, a good chunk goes into a corporate bank accounts, and the rest typically goes into the pockets of the owners, who then either spend it on some good or service that they don't have, invest it in another company, donate to charity, or store it away in their own bank accounts.

    BTW, did you know that CEO bonuses do not count as profits, those are counted as "employee compensation" which are said to reduce profits.

    Waste it on what?

    Also, do you not consider it a waste to pay people to do nothing?

    BTW, this graph using data from the BEA plots growth in public/private salaries versus growth in respective productivity.
    [​IMG]

    First, I would say that public entities can look towards the private sector when it comes to pricing,
    just as many private and semi-private corporations do today, including the one I work for.

    If anyone, private or public sector, reduces price by 10% through sacrificing quality and or performance,
    then it could be that that quality and performance was to an extent that was unnecessary and wasteful.
    In any case, if people truly want that quality and performance,
    then they should be willing to pay for it. Competition for their money will mean that higher quality items will continue to be offered.

    If safety or fairness ever becomes an issue, then this is where government regulations will get involved.

    But quality and performance do not have to be reduced in order for prices to be reduced.
    If we assume that the quality and performance of all new items remain the same,
    then by the very nature of having more of these items available, the price for each one will be reduced.

    I agree 100% with that.

    I also agree that certain government actions can reduce competition in certain areas. Postal serveries, the use of force, law making, etc.
    However, the government hiring people to do other things does not reduce competition,
    it increases it.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Dec 31, 2011
    #136
  12. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    o_O



    ....so......are you agreeing with me then?

    BTW, the government, or at least our government, is not an individual,
    it is controlled, in theory, by the will of the majority.

    How is hiring people to work somehow more forceful than hiring the same people to do nothing?
    Where is the force involved in one that is not involved in the other?

    Also, I'm pretty sure that our law of the land also permits the government to use force where necessary to provide for the general welfare.
    I'm not sure if you're an anarchist, but most people I talk to who tell me that they are anarchist,
    also tell me that they view taxes as a government use of force.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Dec 31, 2011
    #137
  13. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Then it isn't disingenuous at all,
    since as I've mentioned many times,
    employing people helps to solve unemployment.

    I explained it in the chunk that you just quoted.
    If you want me to go into more detail,
    just tell me what point you want me to elaborate on.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Dec 31, 2011
    #138
  14. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Are you saying that the reason people are unemployed, is because someone is not following the current laws?
    And which laws would that be?
     
    Meta777, Dec 31, 2011
    #139
  15. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Simply requiring a work ethic could be viewed as an infringement of individual liberty in any at-will employment State.
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #140
  16. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    What you explained must not have been very convincing. Why do you believe our economy would be less efficient, if we subsidize the least efficient to not provide labor input to the economy?

    How can you better ensure full employment without resorting to forms of communism?
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #141
  17. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    In case you missed the point to our whole argument, it is about achieving zero percent official poverty regardless of what the private sector is doing, because the public sector can effectively compete for labor and engender the effect of less than one percent unemployment for market based metrics purposes.
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #142
  18. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    It is no wonder you don't have a real solution to our social dilemmas, without also resorting to the coercive use of force of the State instead of market friendly public policies which can generate revenue to defray the cost of government.

    It was about lowering our tax burden through more efficient public policy choices.
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #143
  19. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    It would not be required, the only ones who would work would be those who wanted to.
    The government by offering to hire more people, would no more be forcing work on individuals who don't want it, than it is today.
    If this were to happen, we can actually expect that people on average would work less.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Dec 31, 2011
    #144
  20. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    What is it about the simple fact that employing people reduces unemployment,
    is difficult for you to understand?
     
    Meta777, Dec 31, 2011
    #145
  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    In the post I quoted, you stated that we were not moral enough to follow our own laws.
    What laws are you talking about?
     
    Meta777, Dec 31, 2011
    #146
  22. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    How would you solve for official poverty instead of merely paying for the expense of a war on poverty for over thirty years?

    If you don't consider that an objective on your agenda, why do you believe you are advocating promoting and providing for the general welfare of the United States?
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #147
  23. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    The part where you explain how you would "magically" create jobs without resorting to forms of communism. Why not let the markets decide how best to allocate capital resources?
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #148
  24. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Laws on the concept and legal doctrine of employment at will.
     
    danielpalos, Dec 31, 2011
    #149
  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    By hiring people to work,
    rather than merely being another expense, their labor will pay for itself, and then some.
     
    Meta777, Dec 31, 2011
    #150
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