U.S. Army Tries New Recruiting Tactics

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Lil Mike, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is certainly a problem, but most of the young people I know who arent joining arent couch potatoes either. Though I live rurally, and as I understand it thats more of an urban problem.
     
  2. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Question all you want. I don't mind. It was an artillery battalion at Ft. Hood, 2nd Armored, and being able to read the manuals and speak coherently mattered in the 1980's, at least to some.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  3. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    And some of them don't make the grade. No shame in it, just the way things go for some.
     
  4. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Uhhhhh, here is an FYI. I said I served for over 20 years, I did not say when.

    My first enlistment was from 1983-1993. And we either worked with them, or shoved them into a position where they could do no harm. There are always basic grunt-work type positions that need to be filled, with minimal language skills needed. I was Infantry back then, where communication was critical. But with somebody like that we could still find a use for them. Even if just using him or her as a stevedore, dishwasher, or running endless site security.

    It is just so damned hard to kick somebody out, that it is rarely done unless they mess up. So we just stick them in a place they can do no harm until their enlistment is done and they go home on their own.
     
  5. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    I don't doubt some units did keep them around; my brother didn't keep them in his. I'll go with the Horse's Mouth over somebody who wasn't there's opinion and anecdotal experience, but thanks for the input.
     
  6. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me, as I laugh. Because that is exactly what your claim is, that your "brother did this and that" in his unit. That is exactly the definition of anecdotal.

    Be the very definition, even his account to you is anecdotal, as you did not observe it yourself.

    However, I recently actually brought this up with our S-1 recently. And she actually looked into it. SHe has not found any clause in the US military for discharging somebody for failure to learn English. And has not found any clause in the regulations which allows for them to be discharged.

    So please, give us the regulations that allow for this to happen. I had a Brigade level S-1 check it out, and it sounded funny to her. I also asked so Colonels (O-6 type), and neither of them had heard of it either. Nor had I, in over 22 years of service.

    This is the thing, when it comes to the military that many do not understand. It is highly regulated, and follows some rather strict laws and rules. I could not even find any evidence of this happening, other than a few cases in the 1800s. So yea, I am going to continue to call it coprolite, because I have found absolutely nothing in researching this topic. And yes, I actually do research, not just rely upon what I know.
     
  7. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Pay isn't a single issue but it certainly is an issue. Many would be surprised to learn that many lower Enlisted service members with children are subsidized by the government...There are programs setup to provide them with baby needs such as diapers, formula, etc. Thousands are also on food stamps.

    Yeah, military service members employed by the government and paid via taxes are subsidized by the government for food and other needs.

    When we strip it all down to the bare metal it's ridiculous. We send teenagers to fight wars but their pay is so low that they qualify and receive government subsidies even with all of the military benefits they receive. There is something sort of wrong with that especially in the era of a strong economy to where civilian life can be much more appealing than a rigid military life for many young folks.

    Granted as you move up the ladder the pay does get better, but as I said before the balance between the paycheck and the military quality of life is tipping pretty drastically in the wrong direction. The military can never compete with the civilian world in terms of money but it can do more to make military service "worth it". Take me for example, with my tenure and job in the military I get paid quite well. My pay is nowhere near close to my civilian counterparts doing the same job but I get paid "well enough" for my pretty laid back lifestyle. When we start including spouses and children into the mix then my "well enough" paycheck starts to lose it's value compared to my civilian counterparts and I've noticed among my peers that those who are jumping ship to the civilian aviation realm are largely those with families.

    Military pay is rarely competitive, it's the benefits that are competitive. GI bill, Tricare, BAH, etc. Plus the military lifestyle is appealing to many and many just want to serve the country. But as I said before the military way of life has always been difficult on folks but military life coming into the year 2020 is bordering on near cruelty in many cases. It's getting to the point to where there are no benefits or pay they military can provide to make choosing this as a career worth it to many people especially if you want to have a family.
     
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  8. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Thats part of it. Many kids nowadays aren't used to the discipline and rigid structure of military life not having grown up in the more "traditional" households of generations past. The new mantra among this upcoming generation seems to be "seek happiness and do whatever you want and nobody should be able to tell you what to do".

    That's a personal choice though that these kids are making. The military in all reality is probably one of the easiest jobs as far as starting out. You literally just be quiet and do what people tell you to do for the first couple of years. That's where the problem lies though, being able to "shut up and do what you are told" can seem pretty outrageous to kids who are used to telling their parents to go **** themselves and get away with it on a routine basis.

    Saying that, however, this is one reason that I can sympathize with. If you are an individual, introvert, etc then the military will be hard for you. I am those things, I'm not a very social person, I've been an introvert for as long as I can remember, and I would almost always rather work alone than do team projects or anything like that. Oh and I don't really like rules.

    I'm only as successful as I am in the military because I know how to shut up, but the reality is that the military lifestyle for me is much harder than for those who are more outgoing. So this is one thing that can understand. If you are not a people person then I wouldn't recommend military service because it'll be pretty mentally challenging for you. And I have a feeling that a whole lot of young folks growing up with their video games and computers are pretty isolated individuals.
     
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  9. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well married soldiers with children are definitely in a different category, just like a recent high school graduate with a wife and kids. But even back in "the day" as a single soldier I had plenty of money.
     
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  10. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Yeah single Soldiers of any rank have adequate money unless you live in a ridiculously high cost of living area like NYC or the California cities. Even Privates make decent money when you factor in the fact that they don't pay any bills outside of luxuries. However, I do feel like something is wrong with the system when a married Soldier with a child who gets BAH at that point and a base paycheck still requires subsidies from the government. From my own moral perspective I feel like there's a problem with that. Granted the majority of service members don't see combat, but there are plenty of combat troops out there actually fighting wars who don't get paid enough to support themselves and their families without subsidies. That just seems wrong to me. I've always felt that those with MOS's that "leave the wire" should be paid more than those who don't but that's a different topic. Nobody who's job it is to go out and fight wars and possibly take a bullet for their country should earn so little money that they require food stamps....It's not irresponsible E-3's who have like 5 kids or something either. It's Soldiers with 1 child who still get subsidized with baby products and whatnot.

    But that brings us back to the original topic. Private pay is more or less on par with any other low skill high school graduate civilian job. Bonuses include not having to pay rent or buy food if you don't want to and your healthcare is free. The issue I believe is that young folks don't really feel like those things are worth it for what the military asks in return. A lot of folks would rather work a low paying civilian job and pay for their own bills and healthcare over getting all of those things for free with the caveat of being in the "military". I get it, the military isn't for everyone, especially not the Army or Marines, but those branches "suck" because they are designed to suck in comparison to the Air Force due to a different mission set.

    Things CAN be improved for the better, I've seen it personally, but it will be a long time and/or a cold day in Hell before the actual Army itself adopts any of the policies I've seen work wonders at the unit level. For example morning PT. That sucks, period. Waking up at 0530 every morning to go run or whatever and then going in to work until 1700. 11.5-12 hour days 5 days a week is a lot of "work". My previous unit did something different with the Enlisted folks. Our Company gave them a choice, you can do PT early in the morning like everyone else or you can get off work at 1500 and do PT for 2 hours then. They voted overwhelmingly to do PT in the afternoon instead and morale skyrocketed. Plus that 1SG we had (now SGM) was a God when it came to understanding and taking care of Soldiers. He was very adamant about not "working to standard, not to time" and he actually meant it unlike the Army itself who says that but actually means "work to standard not to time unless you finish before time then you're sticking around anyway because we said so".

    So that gave those Enlisted folks an actual reason to bust their asses every day. If they got their work for the day done at noon then they were released to go change and hit the gym for a couple hours then go home. Not uncommon to see our crew chiefs running around in civilian clothes at 1500. They got to go to work at 0700 or 0800 like normal people instead of waking up at 0500 to do PT. He took care of those kids and the Company was better for it. We were the best Company in the Brigade based on actual ratings and the words from 3 different Brigade Commanders' mouths. I've told him multiple times to write a book on how to properly lead Soldiers and I mean it. People like him are who should be in charge of the Army.

    Back when I was Enlisted there was none of that "logic". Their mantra was "we pay you so shut up". I can't count the amount of hours I wasted playing handball in the Tank hangars for hours with literally nothing to do waiting for the magical 1700 because that's when we were allowed to leave. When I became an NCO I said screw that nonsense and sent guys back to their barracks whenever they had nothing to do. They literally lived across the street from work. It will take them less time to get back to work if I needed them than it would for them to get out of the bathroom in the hangar if they were doing #2. I never bought into that notion of "there's ALWAYS something to do", no screw that, I don't believe in busy work. We have a job, when we are done working then send people home, don't create crap for them to do just because they are there. The military gets enough pounds of flesh from you via never ended wars and training exercises and extra duties and other "military" stuff. I'm not keeping kids at work just for the hell of it when I could provide them with the one thing the Army refuses to give them. Time.

    ^^Those are just a few of many examples but those things work wonders for morale. But the Big Army will never implement a standard like that at the Army level. The Army doesn't like not having control over it's Soldiers. These are just things I have noticed in the past. With my rank and position I virtually go to work and leave whenever I please but I know full well how it feels to not have that luxury and I know what a morale boost it is to Enlisted when these sorts of things are granted to them.
     
  11. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I was only at one unit that did afternoon PT, but it was a training facility and had to accommodate class time. I suppose in theory they could have had 5:30 am PT but it was generally so foggy in the morning that it would have been a safety issue. When I was an NCO I gave my soldiers the chance to do individual PT, right up until they started having trouble on the test, then we went back to group, but even then it was gym centric. Of course, we were on shift work so we had some flexibility since most of the command wasn't around when we were at work. Of course, that's not a common situation with most troops who work a standard days schedule. Then it's almost impossible for First SGT's not to be involved.
     
  12. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    That's the way I feel it should be in general but I know that will never happen in the Army as a whole because you can't really trust Soldiers to do something like workout unless they are forced to do so. That's something that I actually agree with the Army on, if we made PT on your own the new standard then we'd be hit with a gigantic stack of PT test failures come next test date that the Army would have to deal with. It's just the whole waking up at 5am to go do it thing that just sucks the morale out of so many people. Do it in the afternoon, even if you didn't get off of work until 1700 and had to go do PT until 1830 or 1900 most people would still take that if it meant waking up at 7 or 8am instead.

    "We do more before 9am than most people do all day. Do you have what it takes?"

    No...that sounds like it sucks who the hell wants to do that lol. The overwhelming vast majority of young people would much rather go home later in the evening than wake up earlier in the morning as demonstrated clearly whenever that decision was given to them.

    It's little things like that that most people in charge don't even think about that would greatly improve "quality of life". I'll tell you what the single best thing about my rank and position and job now is the fact that I virtually make my own schedule and I don't have to do PT in the mornings if I don't want to, which means I don't do PT in the mornings. I'm old, I get up at the crack of dawn anyway but I thoroughly enjoy rolling around in the bed then getting up and having coffee and breakfast then moseying on into work at around 9am every day. Sergeants Major HATE all of us pilots with a passion because they think we are dirtbag Soldiers (which is mostly true) but one of the "things" we have is that we don't get up early and do PT. That's a battle we've fought against 1SG's and CSM's for decades and it sure as hell is a hill we are willing to die on lol.
     
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  13. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    they can go after bad guys for oil, but most importantly by using video games for drone warfare.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  14. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    They have a real pension plan. One can actually retire in 20 years. What other employer will pay for both an undergraduate degree and a graduate degree.

    A major problem now is finding recruits who aren't fat and can pass a drug test.
     
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  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Not any more, that is a thing of the past.

    Starting a few years ago, people entering now have to put money into the program, and it behaves exactly like any other 401K program. Thankfully, I am grandfathered in so I do not have to worry about that. But anybody who had less than 10 years in had to start putting money away out of each paycheck.
     
  16. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    That explains to me why they are having recruiting issues.
     
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  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Not at all.

    There are actually some big advantages with the new system.

    For example, you can then roll it over after you complete your time (4 years or 40 years), and have it gain even more money on the civilian side.

    If you do it right, you can make a lot more money for retirement in the new system than you can with the old one. And since the vast majority of those who join only serve 4-6 years, this is really a pointless claim. Less than 20% serve the 20 years to gain a pension in the old system. And those that serve for under 20 in the old system get absolutely nothing.
     
  18. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Yeah with the blended system you are still looking at a 40% retirement at 20 years plus the military match with the TSP (401K).

    The system is actually fantastic and an even better deal for new recruits who understand how to save money. I too am grandfathered into the old system and at this stage in my career the math didn't work for me for the blended system. But if I could have started my career with the blended system based on the percentage I've always saved with TSP as is (without a company match with the legacy system), I would retire as a millionaire.

    This new blended system is certainly not a contributing factor to the recruitment problem, at least not for anyone who understands even the basics of how money works.
     
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  19. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Saw on reddit...

    upload_2020-3-20_18-59-43.png
     
  20. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Yeah I have quite a few friends who made the jump from Army Aviation to the Airlines and they are panicking right now. I feel for them. I also have concerns about how this is going to effect Army Aviation in the future. The mass exodus of Army pilots was forcing the Army to take some responsibility and implement changes for the better seeing how their backs were up against the wall. If Army pilot retention increases then I am 100% certain the Army will slow down or even flat out stop trying to "appease" it's pilots.

    Appease isn't a bad word in this instance it's a bad "Army" word. Yes the Army should be doing more to increase the quality of life of it's aviators and put them more in line with other branches. The Army HATED having to hold its nose and do that and now if pilots stop jumping ship to the airlines the Army is going to go right back to it's status quo...
     
  21. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    This is only a blip. Long term the Army still has to figure out it's retention problems.
     
  22. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I'm wondering how this will effect those retention numbers though. If thousands of Americans find themselves out of work after their businesses have closed I wonder if that will spike recruitment numbers. Even when this is all over there will be lots of folks out there without jobs to return to. One positive about the military is that it is a stable form of employment that does pay well enough if you can stomach the "Army" as a lifestyle. Maybe Soldiers thinking about leaving service right now may be reconsidering that choice.

    But then again I've spent the past week reading various Facebook group posts about the Armys response (or lack thereof) to the pandemic and Soldiers at every echelon are NOT impressed lol....From what I'm gathering the Armys response to this is actually helping Soldiers with their decision to leave service as soon as possible....

    On the topic of retention, the Army is currently exercising a policy of exactly what not to do during a pandemic when you already have a massive retention issue on your hands....

    Like I always tell young Officers and NCO's, fight for your Soldiers, care for your Soldiers, and most importantly let them see you do it. Right now the ranks feel as though the Army doesn't care about it's Soldiers at all based on various units' lack of even acknowledgement that there is a CDC telling Americans to do the 100% opposite of what the Army is making it's Soldiers do...And the troops themselves are not happy and it's by no means just Private Billy who doesn't want to go to work on Monday. It would be different if all branches of the military were operating this way, but other branches have taken vastly different measures while the Army just continues on as if there is nothing going on right now. And the troops see that...

    But as I keep telling my younger coworkers who haven't been in very long. Don't be surprised, we are the Army, regardless of WHAT it is we will always be the last ones to do it lol.
     
  23. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    It is possible if the current policies throw us into an economic depression, with 20% or higher unemployment rate, the military will start looking really good. That could solve retention, and enlistment issues for years to come.
     
  24. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Which is good for the Army but not necessarily good for the Soldiers in the Army.

    It sucks that it's come to this but the reality is that the Army has finally started to listen somewhat and improve quality of life. It's a slow process and they are doing a poor job of trying but I'll give credit where credit is due, at least they are doing "something". The problem is that the only reason they are even acknowledging the lackluster quality of life is directly because of the retention and recruitment crisis.

    The Army has it's own unique, and often poor, way of doing things and they ONLY ever even consider the thought of changing anything when they absolutely have no choice. The retention and recruitment crisis gave them no choice. Sounds pretty messed up but I for one welcome the recruitment and retention crisis because it has forced the Army to wake up and adapt to modern times. Many of the "suck just for the hell of it" policies of the Army are beginning to be scrapped, Soldiers were being treated better, standard of living was being improved, leave was becoming easier to take, etc. All the direct result of the Army trying to improve quality of life for it's troops in order to keep them in longer. Hell I even attended a briefing with a Col. who flat out said we're going to reduce the amount of stuff we force Soldiers to do that "sucks just to suck". I have NEVER in my entire career ever heard high brass even come close to saying something like that before. Or better yet acknowledging that yes much of what we tell our troops to do really IS pointless.

    But as I said I'm curious to see how this plays out. This pandemic is a glaring example of what I mean about the Army having it's own "Army" was of doing anything. I'm reading info about the various units' responses to this every day and what I am seeing is honestly flat out hilarious to put it mildly. I am good friends with multiple Commanders and E-8's and 9s and I ended up contacting a couple of them recently just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind or something. But nonetheless I'm not losing my mind or both myself and my other senior cohorts are all losing our minds together. A lot of troops from new Privates to field grade officers to Sergeant's Major are unhappy with the way the Army is handling this situation in comparison to our fellow military branches and I think this is leaving a pretty sour taste in the mouths of troops who will be up for reenlistment once this pandemic is over.

    I have a feeling that the Army's response to this pandemic has single handedly undone all of the quality of life improvements the Army has been trying to make recently and will have a direct reflection on retention once this is over.
     
  25. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I'm seeing such the same thing on https://www.reddit.com/r/army/

    Some of this stuff...I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't been in myself!
     

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