Was Hillary's loss result of campaigning in error?

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by Le Chef, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, Hillary is more unlikeable than Trump. Infinitely. But to be honest, I never really disliked Trump in the first place. Many reasons:

    1) He is a do-er in business. You think it's easy building a real estate empire, in NYC, even with a substantial inheritance? Try it. Do snow-cone stands if you like. Whatever the product or service, it's always, always hard. Moreover, while some of his businesses have failed, yes, as do many, many other startups, he picks himself up and goes back into the arena to get himself beat up, risking his fortune in the process. I admire and respect him for it.

    2) I don't think that Trump wants to control me in any way. He wants less power in D.C. and more at the state level. That's more democratic than what we have now. He hates regulation. What freedom-loving person really likes regulations? With Hillary Clinton and people like her, it's exactly the reverse.

    Trump and I would never have been personal friends for several reasons. But I don't want a "friend" in the white house. I want an inspirational leader who make me proud to be an American. Trump satisfies, though I actually voted for Johnson. :flagus:
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
    US Conservative likes this.
  2. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I remember those days, and thought at the time -- and moreso the morning after the election -- that her lead in the polls was based in part on spineless boomers who want to seem progressive when asked if they believe in equality, feminism, class warfare, and all the rest, but who deep down believe that progressivism is close to leftism which is close to enforced collectivism, which is poison to the American spirit, and which nobody really likes. Except the controllers, of course.

    On edit, I am reminded of a John Stossel interview with Hillary:

    Our well-intended rules often create nasty, unintended consequences.

    For example, after Western media complained that Bangladeshi workers were abused in "sweatshops," many of those businesses closed. "Good!" said the media. "We stopped the abuse!" But then Oxfam researchers discovered that many of those now unemployed workers were begging for food on the streets. Some became prostitutes.

    Clinton replied, "I heard about that study, but most regulation improves living conditions: zoning rules, affirmative action, licensing, minimum wage ... "

    I responded, "Well, I'm a libertarian and ... "

    "I know who you are!" she interrupted. We were off. I give her credit: She argued with me for half an hour. Finally, she'd had enough. She just ignored me for the rest of the meal.

    Clinton's wish to regulate workers' sleeping arrangements is a symptom of "lawyers' disease." Like most politicians, she assumes problems are best solved with new rules. She doesn't notice that most new rules create new problems. Worse problems. Problems that often take away opportunity altogether.

    I don't want to live in a shipping container. But when politicians say "no one" may, they prevent desperate people from improving their lives.

     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
    Gatewood and US Conservative like this.
  3. Stuart Wolfe

    Stuart Wolfe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    14,967
    Likes Received:
    11,255
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I can't tell you why, but I too have had the feeling you were a foreigner. Maybe it's the name, I dunno.

    But one thing that did strike me as worthy of a comment was your last sentence. There's quite a few Trump supporters in my family, and none of them have even come close to thinking of Trump as anything other than just some guy somewhere who represents him. I'll say it again, the people who call Trump supporters cultists and think of them as worshiping some kind of God-Emperor are projecting because we've seen it before and it looks like this. While I'm sure there's maybe a half-dozen people out there who think Trump is God, it's nothing compared to what we got under Obama.

    Certainly there are, and Hillary is one of them. Consider this: that your dislike of Trump is preventing you from seeing how truly awful Hilla is as a person herself. She was hated while still first lady of Arkansas, and it went downhill from there. perhaps you should consider that it was Hillary who did THIS or that she is known by many sources as acting like THIS?

    Yeah, that hardcore Trumpies line won't work for me. IMHO if Hilla won, she'd be screwing up as worse as Trump but in different ways, the only real difference would be her sycophants in the press covering for her.
     
    US Conservative likes this.
  4. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    41,979
    Likes Received:
    15,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is the fantasy of many Clinton obsessives. The dismal reality is Trump.
     
  5. Stuart Wolfe

    Stuart Wolfe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    14,967
    Likes Received:
    11,255
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Maybe I'm missing something, but in a thread titled

    Was Hillary's loss result of campaign in error?

    it seems to me that we're less likely to talk about the reality of Trump (as we already have enough threads elsewhere about that) and more likely to discuss why Hillary failed. And in that regard, it is pertinent to note that people considered the ways she would screw up vs. the ways Donald would, and considered him the lesser of two evils.
     
  6. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2014
    Messages:
    32,222
    Likes Received:
    12,253
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Edit. I made a big mistake. My bad Nattty
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  7. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    41,979
    Likes Received:
    15,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Hillary Clinton lost because the 2.9 more millions who voted for her did not reside in the right locales, but, given the entertainer's easy routing of all GOP establishment opponents in the primary, the zeitgeist clearly did not favour establishment types, and Clinton was the ultimate establishment type.
     
    Moi621 likes this.
  8. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2014
    Messages:
    32,222
    Likes Received:
    12,253
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The popular vote isn't how you win an election. In fact, this election shows why the electoral vote works. Otherwise, Los Angeles and NYC will always elect a President.
     
  9. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So are you saying she was leading in polls but a lot of people didn't vote the way they polled?
     
  10. Stuart Wolfe

    Stuart Wolfe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    14,967
    Likes Received:
    11,255
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
  11. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Pollsters predicted Hillary would win the popular vote by 3.3% and some of these polls were before the full effect of Trump's surge, and the real answer was 2.1% so they were pretty close.
     
  12. Stuart Wolfe

    Stuart Wolfe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    14,967
    Likes Received:
    11,255
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm at the doctors office as I post this so I cant link you the threads, but we has posters constantly posting threads elsewhere with polls predicting far more than that as a difference. Gorn Captain practically made a career of doing that. And you should look up how they predicted the Electoral College would end up, you'll be amazed how wrong all of them were.
     
  13. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Polls only give you an estimate of the current state of the race not the final result. Hillary may have been far ahead for almost the entire race but her lead shrank to a tossup towards the end and the polls reflected that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  14. Stuart Wolfe

    Stuart Wolfe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    14,967
    Likes Received:
    11,255
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    gc17 likes this.
  15. Ashwin Poonawal

    Ashwin Poonawal Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2017
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    I know that a lot of people do not like Hillary, because her ambition overweighs all her national causes. She is smart and extremely capable. When you add to this the fact that, her scruples can be overruled beyond a threshold, makes her a dangerous leader. Her pride is much bigger than her empathy. I liked Bernie, even though he seemed more like a professor than a leader. I would have voted for Biden with all my heart.

    Trump is an accident of history. This presidency only will play the negative part of a catalyst to bring the humanity to boil, so it can recrystallize itself into more just and benevolent society. In about 2 generations the pride of the present mighty factors will bite the dust, lifting the world out of doldrums.
     
  16. Andrew Jackson

    Andrew Jackson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    48,980
    Likes Received:
    32,700
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course.

    The national polls were spot on (and well within an acceptable margin of error).

    Even most of the state polls (even in the crucial swing states) were pretty accurate.

    The only "Predictive ERROR" was made on the part of pundits (like Silver, Sabato, Etc.) who expected late breaking undecided voters to follow historical patterns (and break about 50/50).

    The late breaking undecided voters defied historical patterns and heavily favored Trump.

    (And considering that Trump won each of PA, MI and WI by less than 1%, the high pct. of Trump vote among the late breaking undecided tipped the election).

    It WASN'T a fault of the polls. It was a misinterpretation of the potential effect of the late breaking undecided (that didn't follow historical patterns).
     
  17. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Trump supporters don't support your view. He's restored morale among the border patrol and the military, and the economy is doing pretty well also. What do you want from a president anyway?
     
    gc17 and Hotdogr like this.
  18. navigator2

    navigator2 Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Messages:
    13,960
    Likes Received:
    9,411
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You just demonstrated the need for The Wall with that post. No way, no how, would red blooded American Texans have voted for the Skankipotimus in those percentages otherwise.
     
    Le Chef likes this.
  19. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2015
    Messages:
    66,099
    Likes Received:
    68,212
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Refresh my memory-who did you think was going to win? :banana:
     
    navigator2 and Stuart Wolfe like this.
  20. Stuart Wolfe

    Stuart Wolfe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    14,967
    Likes Received:
    11,255
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No, that isn't what you said BEFORE the election:

     
    gc17, Le Chef and US Conservative like this.
  21. navigator2

    navigator2 Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Messages:
    13,960
    Likes Received:
    9,411
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Oh hell yes it was. Hitlery was Obama 2.0. The foul Beast was another tentacle of failed extension of the Deep State. And worst of all, the Beast would have loaded the SCOTUS with more leftist revisionists of the Constitution. There is no reconciling the last part. NO, HELL NO to that. That damage is generation lasting. :deadhorse::deadhorse:

    But alas, we were saved. You may not like Trump but he will not take us into that living hell.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
    Le Chef, Hotdogr and US Conservative like this.
  22. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Actually what they said at the end what that it was a complete tossup. 203 for Clinton, 164 for Trump, and 171 tossup. If you were to make wild guesses on these extremely close states it would have been 272 for Clinton and 268 for Trump which is just far too close to call. Also at the same time Trump was surging and some of that may not be reflected in all the polls completely.

    An example of the uncertainty is the latest poll in Pennsylvania showed a narrow Trump lead but averaged with slightly earlier polls it looked like Hillary was leading but we didn't know for sure and that would have tipped the scales to Trump and it did.
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_elections_electoral_college_map.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  23. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The real fault of the polls is that they completely mis-calculated Wisconsin and Michigan, but everywhere else they were pretty close. But unexpected things happen in polls all the time however in close elections it can mean a miscalculation.
     
  24. Stuart Wolfe

    Stuart Wolfe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    14,967
    Likes Received:
    11,255
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Uh, I'm looking at those maps and I think all but a couple had Hilla at 270 or over and quite a few had her at over 300. The least of them had Hilla at 226 to Trump at 161. Which one are you looking at?

    Dude, he said he was Nostradamus in these matters. Polls are irrelevant against that kind of magical power.
     
    US Conservative likes this.
  25. US Conservative

    US Conservative Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2015
    Messages:
    66,099
    Likes Received:
    68,212
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    This is whats known as epic winning.
     
    Le Chef and Stuart Wolfe like this.

Share This Page