Was killing Baghdadi a betrayal ?

I know many things about your beloved Saudi Arabia

1) El Saud armed Radical Islamist Jihadists in Syria.
2) Al Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Shabbab - and numerous other radical Islamist groups share the same Saudi Inspired extremist ideology.

What else do you think I should know - did you want to claim that Saudi Arabia is some pillar of human rights or some other ridiculous thing ?

 

don't blame the media for Trump's messing up an announcement that he should have been able to bring the country together on, but choose not too

turning our backs on the kurds right before this, when they were a big part of the success of this mission also was not good

but I think we can all agree what getting Baghdadi was a good thing and all the people involved did the world a great service

 

ISIS, AQ, Boko Haram and al Shabaab are all enemies of Saudi Arabia.. and Taliban is Deobandi with Muslim Brotherhood influence.

 

Obama spoke for nine minutes and called Dubya in Texas. Trump spoke 48 minutes in his weird, sing songy sexual fantasy mode.

 

They were brave and daring, weren't they!!!

 

i don't think his announcement was bad at all. it was great! as was leaving Pelosi out of it. make her know her lower place! Yes lower place!

 

It's a good deal more complex than either of us are suggesting here but my understanding is that the Sauds support violent extremists in the same way that the Southern Baptists "support" the Westboro Baptists. They both believe the same things. (Southern Baptists say God will send gays into a lake of fire for eternity, doesn't that say they agree with Westboro that God Hates ****?) but the Southerns don't carry signs outside of servicemen's funerals and they try to act like "Good Christians" generally. It's not the exact same thing with the Saud's Salafists and ISIS because Islam is a very different religion than Christianity with a very different history, but it is analogous

 

The Saudis don't support terrorists. They fight them .. Have you ever been around any Saudis?

 

But they believe the same things, they have pretty much the same overall theology and form of Islam don't they? The Sauds form of Wahabi is far less violent, though still harsh by our standards, the ISIS is more what we would call "old time religion". Very few of even the most chiliastic Christians think they should go and shoot up abortion clinics but I have heard some very mild Roman Catholics call abortion doctors murderers

Do you mean Saudiis from the nation or Sauds the Royal family. I have met generic Saudis, and they seemed just people to me. The Saud family, I hear, are something else again, Very urbane and charming, as one would expect of what what is very probably the last really powerful royalty left in the world.

 

There is no other form of Wahhabi.. Just the Saudis.. and if you were around them, you'd not only know they are not violent or nationalistic. They are modest, conservative and family oriented.. Wahab simplified Islam .. He was trying to get rid of icon worship and other practices that had come in with the Ottoman Turks.. and he also wanted to get rid of the Turks.

These jump up nutcases who suddenly call themselves Wahhabi or Salafy aren't.

 

Give a break - you are talking gibberish - which is not your normal state ... whats the deal - Have you never googled this question? I don't get it - coming from you.

You analogy is completely backwards - El Saud is the Cradle of this extremist ideology ... the "Westboro Baptist" if we are comparing the two .. the others

Taliban, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shaabab .. - the hundreds of Salafist - Islamist Jihadist groups in Syria - same in Yemen - in Libya, in Pakistan and India - and the "stans" of Russia.

All of the above - the same Saudi Inspired - Extremist Radical Islamist Sunni - Salafi/Wahaabi - ideology. to the group .. they are all -further on the extreme side than the West Baptists.

Shall we discuss ideology ? - what is it that is "extreme" with respect to ideology. ? Saudi Classroom Textbooks teach children to hate Christians, Jews and Muslims who are not Sunni.

Shia do not act like this in general - their ideology is not as extreme. They do not teach their children to hate Sunnis' - and many Sunni's do not teach their Children to hate Shia. ... but Saudi Arabia does - and probably a few of their Gulf State Tribe.

Saudi Arabia has been exporting this ideology for decades - all over the world. Prior to 911 it was their mission statement - now they do not advertise as much but, the dollars put towards support of these groups has substantially increased - due to supplying tens of thousands of Tons of sophisticated military equipment to the radical Islamist Saudi Inspired Jihadists in Syria .. and supplying their Al Qaeda footsoldiers in Yemen.

It should be mentioned that this massive effort to arm, supply and support this radical Islamist proxy army was a global effort - involving many nations with the Obama Administration leading the charge.

Off the top of my head: US, Britain, Qatar, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, the gulf states, Eastern European Nations Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia.

It was a massive 5 year effort. Are you aware of the "amounts" of weapons required to fight a nation state ? for 5 years. We are not talking a few rag tag extremists with AK-47s.

You don't just smuggle 400 Howitzers - over the border in a backpack.




The shipment in late August 2012 had included 500 sniper rifles, 100 RPG (rocket propelled grenade launchers) along with 300 RPG rounds and 400 howitzers. Each arms shipment encompassed as many as ten shipping containers, it reported, each of which held about 48,000 pounds of cargo.

Who did the deal - financed it - made it happen - cause it wasn't baghdadi - Al Nusra - or the hundreds of other groups involved - and tens of thousands of foreign fighters -- heeding the global call to Jihad - Holy War against the evil "Secularism".

That was one shipment of many many many - over 5 yr time period. Billions and Billions of dollars. hundreds of Tanks ..

This was a full on proxy war - no serious observer debates this .. you are saying what ? Santa armed these groups - which had coalesced mostly into Al Qaeda - ISIS - and a few others of the same ilk - by the end of 2012 - and this was reported widely as normal news. Not controversial at the time.

The "Moderate Rebel Lie" had not yet been published. That happened when our dog ISIS in Syria went off its leash and attacked Iraq in 2014.


This is when Rand Paul went on the CNNs Sunday morning program "State of the Union" - talking about this issue.

http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...-my-son-into-that-mess-on-the-crisis-in-iraq/

https://mideastshuffle.com/2014/10/04/biden-turks-saudis-uae-funded-and-armed-al-nusra-and-al-qaeda/

So who armed the Radical Islamist proxy army in Syria ? Santa ?

 

And Russia wasn't involved in this at all? I didn't see any mention of them but i could have missed it.

 

I know both.. The Sudeiri Seven take their obligations very seriously. I think it unusual in this day and age to see noblesse oblige at work.

 

Your analogy is largely correct in terms of the connection between Wahhabi ideology and the rise of the Sunni jihadist movements, but it misses certain other politicized agendas that had the Saudis plays an even more active role in that process.

The story is a long one but basically the Saudis began to invest billions promoting their Salafist, Wahhabi, brand of Islam in reaction to the Iranian revolution as a means to counter its ideology and (in its early years in the 1980s) to steer the anti-Russian jihadist forces fighting in Afghanistan (while making sure those forces would not become allied to Iran, which sponsored its own groups in the fight against the Russians in Afghanistan as well). Subsequently, they did the same (in conjunction with the Redirection in American foreign policy after 2007 during the so-called 'surge') to counter "Iranian influence" in Iraq and later to help the fight against Assad in Syria.

Now, to be sure, the Frankenstein monsters created from this process weren't exactly what the Saudis had ever intended per se. And @Margot is right only to this extent: these jihadist forces aren't really much like traditional Wahhabi elements in Saudi Arabia. Real Wahhabi elements in Saudi Arabia, who are very reactionary, would be horrified by the prominent role many women played as part of the brain washed foot soldiers of ISIS -- nor would they find European jihadist claiming conversion to their brand of Islam and joining their fight as easy to accommodate as ISIS did. And, regardless of its Wahhabi ideology, the House of Saud is openly and clearly an ally of the US and, moreover, quite comfortable in partaking in the material benefits of living a rich and corrupt lifestyle at odds with the "puritan" Islam of Wahhabi ideology. The Saudi Wahhabi were co-opted by the House of Saud sufficiently to accept these contradictions. Indeed, it was the strain of these contradictions, particularly after the Saudis allowed US troops to be stationed in their territory as part of "Desert Storm", that led to first official break and divergence between the jihadist forces unleashed against the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and the House of Saud.

Initially, and until 9/11, however, despite this emerging divergence of political objectives, the House of Saud took a 'more pragmatic" approach towards what ensued. They tasked certain elements within the House of Saud to maintain contact, and support, for these emerging Sunni jihadist groups, to do what they could to divert their focus away from the House of Saud and elsewhere, seeing them as useful tools still against their rivals and enemies. (Before you blame them too much: this was similar to what the US did as part of its surge and Redirection in Iraq, trying to coopt Al Queda elements in a more anti-Iran/anti-Shia direction and less in the service of anti-Western/US crusades).

The monsters created, however, had a life of their own. Basically, while both Saudi Arabia and the US always tried to work with jihadist groups would were willing to take a different label and leadership than the ones which worked directly under leaders who were too overtly anti-Western/anti-US and anti-Saudi than either Al Queda or ISIS, neither Saudi Arabia nor even the US ever gave up on the idea of redirecting these Sunni jihadist sentiments towards their own goals and agendas. This was true under Bush after the Redirection in particular; it was true under Obama; and while Trump is actually the one who is least attracted to this course, it has been partially true even during his time in office.

 

Troops being stationed in Arabia was a problem for OBL but not for the average Saudi.. They are used to Americans.

Trump is calling foreign leaders all over the world and aggressively trying to gut US intelligence services.

 

Unbelievable response - We are not talking about Russia - would you like to ? now that you get what happened in Syria - and hopefully know what a Saudi inspired radical Islamist Jihadist is now.

Now that you realize that we "knowingly" and "purposefully" - armed a radical Islamist Proxy army - resulting in the death of 400,000 - horrible atrocities - war crimes - crimes against humanity - against a people whose big crime was "Secularism" cause we didn't like Assad.

So 13 Bipartisan in Congress . Tulsi Gabbard - Rand Paul - and the Defense Intelligence Agency - (Biden and Obama if you want to get down to brass taxes) - are involved in some grand conspiracy - to claim that it wasn't Santa that gave the Jihadists all those weapons.. NO .. We did it !

So lets have a look at the nice fellows we were supporting. . We can add Richard to the list - a fellow who actually went to Syria - you should listen to this guy talk - for an hour- on Syria if you want to dispel some of the MSM propaganda narrative you have been feeding on.


Virginia Senator Thanks Syrian President Bashar Al Assad for Saving the Lives of Christians
Open Letter of U.S. Senator Richard H. Black to President Bashar al-Assad Acknowledges US Support to Terrorists

“My personal thanks to the Syrian Arab Army and Air Force for protecting all patriotic Syrians, including religious minorities, raped, tortured, kidnapped and beheaded at the hands of the foreign jihadists”…

I cannot explain how Americans, who suffered so grievously at the hands of al-Qaeda, were tricked into supporting the jihadists.

But I do know that many U.S. officials disagree with equipping and training the terrorists who penetrate your borders from the Kingdom of Jordan and through Turkey. Senator Richard H. Black of Virginia, 13th District

My - Bad --- you wanted to talk about Russia. What about Russia would you like to discuss?

 

A betrayal? Betrayal against a person with no regard for human life?

A person that directed assimilation by beheading innocent

people and burned people alive.

No person owed this individual and his minions anything. I can't even believe you ask this question.

 

Yes - that's quite the ally we chose - ISIS- Al Qaeda - and other groups of the same ilk.

You must not have read the OP very well - as you seem not to understand the above point.

 

Could the Russians have been supplying some of this weaponry you seem to think could have come from nowhere other than the US or one of its catspaws?

 

There is a mindset to blame everything that happens on the Saudis or the US or Israel.. that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

About 2500 Saudis went to fight in Syria and they were warned not to go because "they would only make things worse for the Syrian people".

Finally, circa 2012 they told them not to return home if they go to Syria to fight or they will go to prison.

There was NO stopping what happened in Syria. There is some magical thinking that we somehow do or did. What has really happened is other countries including the US were left scrambling to try an do the right thing to mitigate the carnage and stem the flow of refugees.

 

A very sad and distressing situation indeed.

My question to giftedone , however, was about the Russians. They are a major ally of Syria, they even have a naval base there, yet he does not mention them at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus

 

Will you state your question again? I didn't mean to get out there in the weeds.

If Syria is a client state of Russia, why didn't Putin get involved in Syria before the wheels came off? Everyone knew Syria was in bad shape before 2011. Why did the Russians do NOTHING to help Syria with the drought, the financial collapse and the sectarian strife?

 

I think I misunderstood Giftedone. Don't mind me in this area. You gave a very good analysis overall and i would just confuse things by pursuing the matter.

 

Many in Iraq believe he was a US Stooge

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/...tooge-victims-baghdadi-and-his-supposed-death

 

Coming from you, I feel much better about VT. Being a veteran myself, and having read the site for years now, I know how wrong you are. They tell the stories the mainstream media keep under the rug.

They expose the many lies told in support of the Global War Of Terror that you seem to support so strongly. I can see where your loyalties lie.