We have to Save South Africa!!!

While it may be useful to describe somebodies colour of skin when describing what they look like, it's utterly superfluous to mention it in other contexts including this one. Unless of course a poster thinks a politician's colour of skin has any bearing on his/her political abilities, in which case these posters are probably racist.

 

How old are you, 12?

 

Inspector Javert?

 

Most of my family lives there and yes, I hope that they are not the victims of violent crime. Most likely though, it is their servants who will be. Fact.

Most whites are not forced to live in the townships so excuse me for not feeling sorry for them if they decide to take a trip there and get mugged. I continue to feel for the blacks who have no way of leaving the rampant crime and escaping the poverty of the townships. You appear to feel for the whites who blessed the blacks with their colonial presence. Lucky them.

 

I am stating a FACT.
YOU are accusing me of making racist statements, when I am stating fact.

Your mindset is colored by PC. Mine is NOT.

 

Why should they be mugged? THAT is a crime.

Forced????

Is the SA govt forcing people to live in certain places?

 

Obviously not. What you stated isn't a fact but a racist prejudice.
Why do you not criticize the policies of Mandela or Zuma rather than generalizing about "Blacks taking over the government" if the colour of these politicians' skin doesn't affect your opinion on them? And if it does affect your opinion, why do you not just openly admit that you're racist? Are you scared that that would go down as not PC?

 

So , most of your family(Whites?) live there and can afford servants , hey ?

Arent you the person who said : The Europeans treated them like second class citizens, used them as cheap labour

Are you family treating their servants as equals ?
Are the servants not CHEAP labour ?
Could your family enjoy the same life style in Europe without their cheap black servants ?

So. most of your family are today still enjoying the same exploitation of cheap labour which you hypocritically objected to earlier , right ?

see this thread 9-1-11 your post # 21


btw - in african tribal societies most tribe members were nothing better than "second class " depending on how many cows they owned , and also could marry who they wished to , often if the one they wished to marry was from another tribe.

Tribal APARTHEID was deeply rooted in African culture.





cheers.

 

Lol Africans enslaved and sold thier own people yet these clowns want you to think all Africas problems are because of the " white" man, oh please.

America is a few hundred years old and is the most powerful nation that has EVER existed on the planet.

Africa has been around for thousands of years and they are still a third world country, they can't even feed themselves, why is that?

 

'Why' is something you're not capable of understanding.

 

Still see facts aren't really so important in this thread.

Here are a few facts.

1. I was in a township today. Did not get mugged, robbed, attacked or shouted at. Not once. I go into township regularly, btw.
2. I. not any of my family, lives in gated communities. Most white South African's make fun of people who do. Many blacks do however live in gated communities too.
3. Someone living in SA has piped in. Me.
4. South Africa does not have a black government. That would imply the government has to be black, like we used to have a (crappy) white government. We have a representative democratically elected government. There are many people who are not black in cabinet, more actually in percentages, than there are in the country.
5. We have a crime problem - All South Africans are suffering through it.
6. I dislike the South African government, and do not vote for them. My vote is got nothing to do with colour. Their incompetence has got nothing to do with their (perceived by some posts here) colour. I can name many European (white) governments that are incompetent. I can name many white government officials and elected white people in SA who are incompetent. Also black ones, coloured ones and Asian ones. What does it prove? Exactly.
7. South Africa's blacks were never enslaved. They were not taken to the America's as slaves (that was from central Africa) and SA's slaves were imported.

Hope this helps. Seeing how you all ignored it when i corrected your wrong ideas ear;ier, I doubt it.

Oh, and tell the millions of Black South Africans who now have access to health services where they never had before, to schools where they never had before, tell the millions (yes millions) of Black South Africans that now have electricity and water where they never had before that they are no better of now, and see what they say.

AH

 

THANK YOU AH - I;ve no way of disputeing what you've said , however permit me a few questions on points I've highlighted above :

First - are you White - Coloured or asian ? secondly , I presume there are several different "townships " with varying crime risks , right ?

Would you go into the same or any other township - at night ?

No4 - So you admit you've got disproportionately / predominantly Black members in govt. Hmm.

No 6 - could it be that your dislike has more to do with corruption by the M'Benzis ? Those Black bureaucrats - Mercedes Benz , who are treat their Black servants worse than the Whites ever did ?
Those New Rich farmers paying their farmer workers , often worse than the former Afrikaner farm owners . (allowing for inflation) ?

RE :

Its good to hear, that's only to be expected , considering Apartheid ended more than 20 yrs ago.
however , I'm not sure its as good as you say THROUGHTOUt RSA - especially in rural areas. Last I heard even in major cities Sth Africa has a major electricity problem .

btw - what was yr opinion when you heard that the first thing the ANC did after they took office was to give themselves a fat - I mean a BIG fat - increase above that of the former government ?

As I've said before instead of being fleeced by the Afrikaners South africans are being fleeced the New Black Elite.

Nevertheless , I sincerely hope your lives + living standards improve , irrespective of race, religion /colour.

cheers.

True Black were never enslaved , though before British admins. In Cape Colony the Dutch had slaves - political prisoners from Dutch East Indies , enslaved Muslims - called Cape Malays - is that right ?

AND IT WAS THANKS TO THE BRITISH WHO SET THEM FREE AND ABOLISHED SLAVERY IN THE CAPE COLONY.



....

 

Thank you for your post Marlowe, and as much of what I am saying is based on my experience, I appreciate that their might be some questions.

Let me try and answer yours:

1. I am a white South African. There are townships with varying crime risks (nothing to do with colour). the once I most often visit is Umlazi and Kwa-Mashu, both have some of the highest crime stats (not race related) in the RSA.

Now, again I have to stress that SA has a huge crime problem, and this means that South Africans avoid a lot of places at night. Here in my city I would not go to city Centre at night, for instance. There are thus places that are not in Townships that I would not go to at night, because of crime, not because of my race. This is true for many cities all over the world. I have been to townships at night, also, and have never been attacked. (Here it might be worth mentioning that I have been the victim of crime 4 times in my life, twice in France, once in the UK and once in SA).

2. (No. 4). No, you misread what I am saying, I am saying the opposite: There are a disproportionate number of people who are not black in our government. Is it predominantly black, as more than 75% of South Africans are black, does this not make sense? The UK government is predominantly white, as is the government of the US. The Government of Israel is predominantly Jewish, the Government of Canada is predominantly white. What does that prove? That one group is bigger than the other. And I again stress, that the number of white, Indian and Coloured South Africans in Government is in proportion higher than their numbers in the General population.

3. (your no. 6). My dislike is based on their incompetence, on their ridiculous policies towards HIV-AIDS, crime and corruption. On their really bad educational policies. In short, my dislike for the ANC is based on their policies. My like for the party I support is based on their policies. Hope it is the same for you and your party.

4. Do we have an energy problem. Yes. But not for the reasons you seem to think. Apartheid South Africa provided excellent service to a small part of the population, little to no service to a large part. The old South African electricity grid was thus designed to produce electricity to the minority of the country, and it did a great job of that. Then, very quickly, the number of clients went from a few million to 40 million. Add to that South Africa's highest economical growth ever, leading to new and expanded industries, and electricity demand outstripped supply. We were caught out by our success, not our failure.

So to answer your question, more people ll over (urban and rural) now have electricity, but for a time 2 years ago, we had supply problems to everyone. (The supply is now more stable, but the system is stretched. New Powerplants are being build as we speak, and the long term projection looks good. We also have something like the 2nd cheapest electricity in the world, btw).

On your final remarks. I agree the government giving themselves raises was wrong. Just as wrong as the White apartheid government plundering billions from state coffers in the last days (literally days) of Apartheid, giving themselves lovely retirement packages was wrong. Unfortunately in my country, corruption and greed know no colour.

And the Brits were an enigma. With the UK it is very much 'what we give with the one hand we take with the other'. They abolished slavery (reluctantly), but took independent South African states' freedom away, forced Black South Africans to work on mines at very low wages, and imposed the system of indentured labour (which is why we have such a large Indian population) which is barely above slavery. Apartheid in this country was started by the Brits, let us not forget this!

AH

 

Oh, and one thing I keep wanting to mention to the OP- If I look at the state of countries recently 'saved' by the USA, I would rather you did not 'save' u. thank you

AH

 

How many Black SAs are murdered every day?

 

Tyler must have missed this one:

So 46 murders a day according to the bit I bolded. According to the OPs stat, which he forgot to back up with a link, that would mean that only White SAs are murdered. Very much doubt that.

 

You need'nt fear on that score - USA will only rush to "save" you if South Africa suddenly became a major oil producer.


I'm glad to hear that you feel safe/ secure in your City in Natal, other South Africans - those who could afford to , has long ago - resettled elsewhere - Australia-NZ - UK - Holland , etc. and my understanding is that they continue leaving South Africa.

new reports paints a very different picture - the safety of white farmers is quite scary , dont you think so ? Here's ONE example :

White farmers 'being wiped out'
Over 3,000 have been killed since 1994. Now the ANC is accused of fanning the hate.Death has stalked South Africa’s white farmers for years. The number murdered since the end of apartheid in 1994 has passed 3,000.

In neighbouring Zimbabwe, a campaign of intimidation that began in 2000 has driven more than 4,000 commercial farmers off their land, but has left fewer than two dozen dead.

The vulnerability felt by South Africa’s 40,000 remaining white farmers intensified earlier this month when Julius Malema, head of the African National Congress’s (ANC’s) youth league, opened a public rally by singing Dubula Ibhunu, or Shoot the Boer, an apartheid-era anthem, that was banned by the high court last week.

Malema’s timing could hardly have been worse. Last weekend in the remote farming community of Colenso, in KwaZulu-Natal, Nigel Ralfe, 71, a dairy farmer, and his wife Lynette, 64, were gunned down as they milked their cows. He was critically injured; she died.

That same day a 46-year-old Afrikaner was shot through his bedroom window as he slept at his farm near Potchefstroom. A few days later a 61-year-old was stabbed to death in his bed at a farm in Limpopo.

The resurrection of Dubula Ibhunu, defended by senior ANC officials as little more then a sentimental old struggle song, has been greeted with alarm by Tom Stokes, of the opposition Democratic Alliance. He said the ANC’s continued association with the call to kill Boers could not be justified.

“Any argument by the ANC that this song is merely a preservation of struggle literature rings hollow in the face of farming families who have lost wives, mothers and grandmothers,” he added.

He was supported by Anton Alberts of the right-wing Freedom Front Plus party: “Malema’s comments are creating an atmosphere that is conducive to those who want to commit murder. He’s an accessory to the wiping out of farmers in South Africa.”

Rossouw Cillier, Pieter’s brother, bristled as he pointed to the bullet holes in the panelled kitchen of the farmhouse near Ceres in the Western Cape. “They shot him through the fridge from the back door — the bullets came straight through here, into his heart. He never had a chance,” he said.

A successful apple and pear grower, he believes his community is living on borrowed time: “More white farmers have been killed than British soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes, we are at war here.”

His brother’s farmhouse is now shuttered and empty. “I can’t spend time here. We’ll have to sell. This farm has been in our family for generations but it must go. Who’ll manage it? The children will never come back here. They held their own father as he died in front of them. Will they ever get over that?”

As we walked across the orchard, fruit destined for the shelves of Tesco and Sainsbury’s in the UK was still being picked. A tractor passed a 10ft cross erected in honour of the murdered farmer.

“It lights up at night,” Rossouw said. “My brother was a religious man. It’s all that’s left of him here.”

Across South Africa many farmers feel endangered. In Northern Province a tribute has been created beneath an enormous sign with the stark Afrikaans word “plaasmoorde” — farm killings. Thousands of white wooden crosses have been planted across a mountainside, one for each fallen farmer.

Recently the government’s department of rural development has been airing proposals to nationalise productive farmland as a “national asset”. Critics claim it is designed to deflect criticism from the ruling ANC’s failures.


“It’s a lot easier talking about nationalising farms than building decent houses, making clean water come out of taps or honouring promises to redistribute farm plots to millions of landless poor,” said a spokesman for AgriSA, the farmers’ union.

On the outskirts of Ceres there are few groceries in the township store — tins of pilchards, baked beans, some dried biscuits. A group of teenage boys sit on the burnt-out remains of a Ford Escort. This is where Cillier’s killers gathered, in a shebeen, a drinking club, where they fortified themselves with cheap hooch before they set off to rob him. They escaped with nothing.

According to Rossouw Cillier the most telling detail is that his brother was unarmed when they attacked. “If we brandish a weapon, we’ll go to prison, not them. What did they gain from this murder? It was an act as pointless as their lives.”http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece

---------------

I'll follow up a few other points in my next post.


cheers.

'

 

Thanks for the excellent post.On the British issue, obviously the Brits and the Dutch were the ones who laid the foundation for the exploitation of cheap black labour, which formed the backbone of apartheid, so I fully agree. It is sad that some spin it as if the indigenous people should have been grateful to have been treated like strangers in their own country.

However, this is where I have a problem. On the one hand you say that crime in SA is particularly problematic; then you say crime happens everywhere. Does the latter discredit the former?

 

Ah, not able to tackle any of my replies so you fall on other wrong ideas.

Me, and most of my family could have gone (my mother is not South African), but we chose to stay, like the vast majority of white South Africans. LOL. You make it sound like only the ones that can not afford it stayed behind, what a hilarious thought, really, I literally laughed out loud, it is so funny.

What makes it even funnier is that for the last 5 years, for every 2 South Africans that emigrated, 3 came back. YES! More South Africans are now returning to SA than is leaving. Oh dear, that does not fit well with your pre-conceived ideas does it?

Give evidence that the farm murders is racially motivated. Give it. Please. Farmers are soft targets, that is it. More black South Africans are being murdered everyday than White south Africans, but that does not seem to bother you, does it?

You know what, even with so many racists that have emigrated, there are still to many left in my country we don't need your brand of racism as well.

Here are a really valuable tips for you: Read. Yup, read, get the facts, cross reference. Do not believe right wing conspiracy theories. You'll find life so much easier for you.

AH

PS. Still laughing at how wrong you are getting it!

 

AH, I appreciate you're trying to present a better image of your country , believe it or not , It doesnt give me any pleasure posting this , but lets face facts and not it.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S71PbichSw&feature=player_embedded"]Farm murders in South Africa Part 1 of 2 - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X38CW6l-em4&feature=player_embedded"]Farm murders in South Africa Part 2 of 2 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYPG_ZF2Z28&feature=related"]White South Africans are under siege - a typical case - YouTube[/ame]

==========

The more I look at it the worse it gets.

..

 

No one is spinning anything nore expecting gratitute - what done is done - cannot be undone. But , as said before, its hypocrital for someone who've benefited with relative there , still enjoying the benefits of cheap servants , to claim the moral high ground. Especially, taking into account that Germany's record in their African colonies was considerably worse . Oh, of course the Germany failed to hang onto their ill-gotten gains . right ?

Let's not forget , there was also a fair number of Nazis amongst South Africans of german descent - All "afrikaners " were'nt Dutch .

No gratitude - thx. but imagine if South Africa was a German Colony as Paul Kruger / Hertzog & Co., wished ?


..

 

AH - glad to see you're laughing I'd be very sorry indeed if you' was crying , having witnessed the tragic experiences of some of your fellow countrymen .

Evidence ?. from a reliable source - Please .

Eye-witness + statements from victims as shown on Youtube I've posted, Tons more , however , I dont think it penertrate .

A.H - You dont know me at all. If my opinion on South Africa sounds racists then so be it. I've been called worse things than a racist. However , it doesnt make your argument anymore . convincing



cheers.

 

I cant recall ever reading abt Zulus/Shangaans or any others being "Forced" to work in the mines - if any pressure was exerted it would have been from their Tribal chiefs - who no doubt got a fat commission from mining company's recruiting officers.

But if claim to know otherwise , that's your choice.

Reluctantly ? Hmmm - Ever heard of Wilberforce ? Slavery was abolished throughout the , then Empire , 1833. And I can assure the slaves was by no means "reluctant"
Wiki says "indentured to their former owners in an apprenticeship system which was abolished in two stages; the first set of apprenticeships came to an end on 1 August 1838, while the final apprenticeships were scheduled to cease on 1 August 1840, six years later."

===

I understand Indian indentured workers , after serving their contracted time, very soon became wealthy merchants , also taking full advantage , employing "cheap Labour " is that true ?



btw - Its often forgotten that White Anglo Saxons was also indentured to American colonies etc.

====


Did you manage to learn more abt Muslim slaves from Dutch East Indies - now called " Cape Malays " ? They didnt object to having their chains removed , did they :


Cheers. .

 

Is it nice having an argument against yourself? When did I deny the existence of Malay slaves (they were not all Muslim, I know my country no worries, clearly better than you). And why would the slaves be reluctant? You should try and read what otehrs say, not what you want them to say. But And i know Wilberforce (I spent some time in Kingston-upon-Hull ,where he is from, you did know that didn't you, that he is from there? How does mentioning the one champion for abolishing slavery mean that all British subjects where overjoyed it was happening? Facts are your friends Marlowe.

And you continue to argue in defense of the British, whom I never attacked.



Oh and forcing labour, Yes, in a ingenious way. The Brits forced the tribes to pay taxes, if they didn't harsh punishment was handed out. These taxes had to be paid in cash, which the tribes did not have. So the tribal leaders had to send the young men to work in the mines, to make the cash to pay the taxes. This is well known history...and it is not the topic of this thread, so i hope you can focus now that is done.

You keep positing videos of people talking about farm murders. I have never denied that farmers are being murdered. It is hiroble, and one of the failures of this government. So keeping posting them, it serves no purpose. I am denying that they are being murdered because of their race, and you have failed to give any proof 9from a credible source) otherwise. Again, (maybe repeating things help) more blacks South Africans are being murdered., and unlike you, I cry for each and every South African, irrespective of race, that is killed. (and let me mention this now, do not dare insult me ever again by implying I do not feel the pain of my fellow country men, that insult I will not let rest).

Let me say this in the simplest terms possible for you, and maybe, just maybe, it will be understood We have a crime and murder problem, and ALL South Africans are suffering from it. It must stop. But it is not a genocide, or no one race is being targeted. Really Marlowe, try and do research, it REALLY helps. Trust me.

Oh, and on those coming back, here you go:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Whites-come-back-to-SA-20080727

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Many-expats-want-to-come-home-20110710

Please, now go ahead and tell me how this is not a credible source.

Lol, still laughing mate.

AH