What if Germany and Japan were victorious in WWll ?

The fuse for war with Japan was lit by 1907 during the Teddy Roosevelt administration.

But why would Japan declare war against Germany before America did during WW l ? Japan had their eyes on the German Mandates, the Melanesian Islands in the Central Pacific. Japan got the Mandates after WW l. Why would Japan want the Mandates ? Did the Japanese have a craving for coconuts ? Japan already knew there was a good probability of having to fight the U.S. Navy in the Pacific.

Japan's naval strategy was "Kantai Kessen" (Decisive Feet Battle) One major naval surface battle believing that the U.S. Pacific Fleet would be sunk and America would sue for peace. That battle never happened.

 

Actually, at that time Japan had a very close relationship with the United Kingdom.

In fact, in the inter-war period the US was so concerend over this relationship that the most detailed war plan in the "Rainbow War Plans" was War Plan Red-Orange (Red being the UK, Orange being Japan). A great many in the War Department thought the most likely "future war" would be between the US and a combined UK and Japanese military. It was not until the mid-1930's that Japan's increasing Imperialistic expansions soured UK-Japanese relations and the US and UK grew closer that the alliances we now know formed.

As for the start of WWII in the Pacific, I place that actually decades earlier, in 1900 in the aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion. That not only was the start of their main Imperial ambitions, but also the screwing they got by the European nations in the aftermath caused them to realize that if they wanted an Empire like the European countries had, they would have to take it for themselves by themselves.

 

Some where in the CyberWar website there is the description of the tactics and how that " Decisive Battle " was suppose to play out. But it would never happen because under Plan Orange the United States had no intention of reinforcing the P.I.'s and we were going to allow Japan to occupy the P.I.'s.
So there was no U.S. Navy fleet to meet the IJN fleet in the Marshal Islands to duke it out.

Also Japan over extended themselves, originally they had no intentions occupying New Guinea and the Solomon Islands and invading Australia. They were on a streak kicking British and American butt all over the Pacific they got greedy.

This caused Plan Orange to be delayed from being initiated because U.S. Naval and Marine forces had to retake Guadalcanal and the Solomon's that were never part of Plan Orange.

Japan had a close relationship with the UK during the late 1800's and early 1900's.

Most of the IJN warships that defeated Russia in Russo-Japanese War were either built in the UK or were of British design. Japans first battleships, the Fuji class, Mikasa class, Kashima class were all built in the UK. When Japan started building their own battleships, cruisers, etc. they were of British design. The Japanese even drive on the left side of the roadway like the Brits.

 

in USA case own american customers, even today its need least (of all countries) external customers . Latin America , Australia, Canada , Africa ´d provide it with needed row materials .

 

As I have posted several times.....by 2023....both the United States and Canada will become 100% ENERGY SELF SUFFICIENT!!!

Now what EXACTLY does this mean?

It means that neither the U.S. or Canada will purchase any kind of energy such as Oil, Natural Gas, Coal...etc....from any other Nation.

The U.S. and Canda have unbeliebably VAST AMOUNTS OF ENERGY RESOURSES!!! It just took many decades before our Technology was able to progress for Canada to get cheaply and easily Oil from Sand Tar....and for the U.S. Oil from Shale.

So much in fact the latest estimates have North American Oil Reserves from Shale, Sand Tar and Liquid Oil at being 6.1 TIMES GREATER THAN THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EASTERN IL RESERVES!!!

The amount of super abundant Natural Gas is so great accurate calculations are proving difficult.

Now what does this mean in general?

It mean's that the U.S. and Canada will have such an over abundance of Oil, Natural Gas and Coal THAT WE WILL BECOME THE #1. Exporter of Shale Oil....the U.S. has always been and will remain the Worlds #1 Exporter of Coal....and Canada will become the Worlds #1 Exporter of Sand Tar Oil.

We will also become the Worlds Largest and #1 Exporter of Natural Gas via LNG.

The U.S. remains the Worlds #1 Exporter of Food.

We are the #1 Manufacturer in the World.

We have the Worlds Largest Economy.

Worlds Largest and most Lethal Military.

The Worlds Largest and most Complex and Comprehensive Infrastructure.

The U.S. Worker is ranked #1 in Productivity.

The U.S. is home to THE VERY BEST AND NUMEROUS COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES AND INSTITUTES ON PLANET EARTH.

Add this all together and multiply by $1.89 a Gallon Gasoline and you get.......A U.S. AND CANADIAN ECONOMY THAT IS IN A STATE OF BOOMING!!!

Super Fast Growth.....Millions of New Jobs....Companis from all over the world competing to get in to set up Manufacturing in the U.S.

Funny thing is.....we defeated Japan and Germany.....but MORE TOYOTA'S ARE MADE IN THE UNITED STATES THAN ANYWHERE ELSE INCLUDING JAPAN!!!

Thus....THE UNITED STATES IS EXPORTING TOYOTAS TO JAPAN!!! LOL!!!

There was no possibility that Germany or Japan would win.

The U.S. was way ahead of both Nations as far as developing Nuclear Weapons.

Japan's Navy Leadership KNEW such a war with the U.S. WAS A HUGE MISTAKE!!!

But the Japanese Army Leadership ran the show.

AboveAlpha

 

Translation: Everything you just said is wrong, I am right. I am juts to lazy to post more then a single sentence saying the same thing I said before. Can't be bothered with doing any research, or looking at other trends, I just make up a belief out of my hat and run with it for no reason other then I like it.

So feel free to try again if you want to be more involved then a single line repeating what you said before. I have no more time to waste with this.

 

You are aware, are you not, that a lot of the oil we buy never makes it into fuel. You do know this, right?

In fact, the general number is that arond 30% of oil used by the US is used for other things. Plastics, fertilizer, medicines, lubricants, and millions of other uses.

Even if we ditched all fossil fuels tomorrow, oil would still be a multi-billion dollar a year industry for the applications other then fuel.

And the rest of your post is very wrong. The US economy is not booming, it is stagnant. Every economist can tell you this, you must be living in the dark if you honestly think that there are millions of new jobs and manufacturing is rushing to set up in the US. In fact, many are fleeing.

Toyotas and other cars are assembled here (not really manufactured, most of the parts are imported from Japan) because the US dollar was weak when that was done. A weak dollar (or any currency) is appealing for other nations because it means our labor and economy is low. And the vast majority of those Toyotas made in the US and sold in the US, they are not exported back to Japan.

And to give an idea of the reverse, consider the Honda Goldwing. The best selling single model bike in the world, it was made since 1975 in Ohio. It's very design was for the US market, and every model made was built right in the US.

Until 2010. When it was decided to close the factory in Marysville, Ohio. Now they are all made in Japan. And many other factories in the US have closed over the decades, as it is now cheaper to produce the items elsewhere and import them into the US where the labor cost is rising faster then the selling cost of items.

But in coming to the last, the Navy did not know that war with the US was a mistake. You need to research things like Yamato and Bushido before making such claims.

 

I am aware of what you post.

But we do export Tototas to Japan.

You are correct we do mostly assembly but that to will change.

As far as the U.S. Economy...it went through one of the worst Winters in History and all key indicators are telling us a BOOM will occur starting right now.

Bushido literally "the way of the warrior", is a Japanese word for the way of the samurai life, loosely analogous to the concept of chivalry.

"Bushido" is a modern term rather than a historical one. The "way" itself originates from the samurai moral values, most commonly stressing some combination of frugality, loyalty, martial arts mastery, and honor unto death.

Yamato....A ship bearing the mythical name of ancient Japan.....was finally destroyed by American Aircraft.

Your point?

AboveAlpha

 

Only a small number of cars are imported from the US to Japan. Specifically ones that appeal mostly to the US market, but are sent in limited numbers to Japan because it is not effective to set up factories there. For example, all V8 Camry cars were (and may still be) made in the US because the engines were made in the US at a joint Toyota-GM factory. The demand for V8 autos in Japan is very small, not enough to justify setting up manufacturing there. And I know some other models were-are exported to Japan, the early Tundra was another, once again not enough demand in Japan to justify making them there.

The US exports on average around 5,000 Toyota vehicles to Japan, an insignificant number compared to the over 1.5 million exported from Japan to the US. And the majority of "Toyota US exports" go to Central and South America, around 225,000 per year and rising.

Bushido, "modern" as in that it's first use was in the 1600's. The word is somewhat modern, but the concept itself is not.

Yamato has many meanings, that is true. I was talking specifically about Yamato-damashii, or the "Japanese Spirit", a concept extending back to at least the 1st century AD. If you think I am talking about the ship, you really do not know much about Japan.

Should we go into the Taisei Yokusankai next?

 

You are refering to the Divine Wind Belief.

Which is without a doubt the most lucky 2 moments in History for Japan! LOL!!

Yamato is the mythical ancient name of Japan.

Listen....I have had to liste to such Bull S#!#....not what you are saying....but from a multitude of Martial Arts Masters and one thing I always tell them is I do not believe in Chi as I have had to sit through so many...."What is Chi and how can it be developed. Chi is the fundamental life force that flows through all and everything ...Blah, Blah, Blah!!!

There is only one concept a person needs to know.....F=MA.

Behind this is accceleration multiplied times Mass and increases in mass can be achieved by balance of the body.

I know a number of Mixed Martial Arts and I DO NOT ADHERE to any psedoscientific fundemental life force.

Now as far as WWII.....the Japanese Army felt itself unbeatable due to the DIVINE WIND EVENTS.

These two events actually happened....but the concept would not save them from the U.S.

AboveAlpha

 

It's difficult to know where the Nazis would have stopped. If Britain and France had just given in to more appeasement, Hitler might have just turned East.

 

I know a lot about this primarily from my over 30 years of study into WWII (primarily the war in the Pacific), and also from living in Japan for over a year. I made a lot of effort to try to understand their mindset and how they thought of the world.

Most people when they think of Racism in WWII immediately lock onto Germany and their treatment of the Jews. That is a mistake, since to them the "Master Race" was any Aryian, and other who they thought of as Superior. In Japan, they really believed they were superior to all other races. And that it was their Divine Right to rule over all others. They were a special race, ruled by a Holy Emperor who was descended in an unbroken line stretching back over 2,500 years.

To put that in context, at the time that Jerusalem was sacked and the Jews sent into exile into Babylon, the Emperor Jimmu had already unified Japan into a single empire that continued unbroken to the present day. You look at Bushido and Yamato as obscure concepts from martial arts. I comprehend them (not believe, but understand how they viewed it) as part of a Divine Destiny that was a major part of their mindset and culture.

The kind of culture that when one of their islands was about to fall, most of the population willingly comitted suicide rather then be taken into captivity. Where 99% of soldiers on any battlefield would die (even at their own hands) rather then surrender.

Yamato is much more then just an ancient name, it is a critical part of their mindset and cultural identity. And it really is impossible to seperate the two when discussing the Early Showa Era Japan.

 

Then you are aware what exactly and how the Divine Wind Concept came about as two times a massive storm destroyed an invading force trying to cross from China to Japan.

Do yu remember who was the Invading Arly and Navies Leader?

AboveAlpha

 

Of course, a series of storms in the 13th century that destroyed the invasion fleets of the Mongols.

The units in WWII were officially known as tokubetsu kōgeki tai, or "Special Attack Units". The word Kamakazi only became common after the war was over.

Remember, I have been studying primarily early Showa era Japan for over 30 years now. And one of the things the Taisei Yokusankai was very successful at was in taking their own mythology and politicizing it to motivate the population. Like the Senninbari. Actually a very recent custom, but it was woven deeply into Shinto to the point that the wearers were told it would keep them safe from harm.

But the point is, that the "Divine Wind" was not what would protect Japan. What would protect Japan was God and their ancestors, who would perform miricles in order to save their Holy Empire. You are confusing miricle with creator here.

What you are saying is the equivelent that the Plague will cause Pharoh to set the Children of Israel free. Which is wrong, because that was done by God, the plague was His miricle to make him do it.

Sorry, but your understanding from the Dojo is a bit twisted and inaccurate. Having some of the grains of truth, but badly ordered and incomplete. You were forced to learn it, where as I have really studied it for decades. And no, I do not believe it. But understanding it is critical if one is to try and comprehend the things that Japan did and why.

 

Hitler had little choice from his perspective but to invade somebody. His 'economic miracle' was crashing by 1938, and looting other countries became a necessity for survival. If he hadn't started his expansion program Germany would definitely fail and be easy prey for the Soviets; there was no one to rescue it, as was the case with American support for the German economy after WW I. France and England had to be taken out early as they would automatically support the Soviets against Germany, Communists or not. Russian imperialism didn't die with the Tsar, after all, and after WW II Khrushchev was an imperialist on steroids and they remained aggressive rabid imperialists until bankrupted by the Vietnam War. Not a dime's worth of difference between them and the Japanese right wing in that regard.

 

You are correct.....it was a necessity for me to learn some of this and I can appreciate another person clarifying some things for me as you just did.

Contrary to the belief of some here.....and even you to an extent have to admit you were replying to me in a manner not as a DISCUSSION but more like you perhaps felt or thought I might act in a manner consistent with many people on Internet Forums that being......THE DIVINE COLON WIND EJECTION BELIEF! LOL!!!

Which of course is the concept of some members that THEY CANNOT POSSIBLY MAKE A MISTAKE!!!

Along with the KARMIC CRUNCHIE.......which is a name given to those who WILL NOT ADMIT THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING, ANYTHING, A TOPIC.....ETC!! LOL!!!

Not me.

Yes....I have a MASSIVE EGO.

Yes....I can come off sometimes as being a PAIN.

BUT......I will NEVER ALLOW MY EGO TO INTERFERE WITH LEARNING SOMETHING NEW OR STRAIGHTENING OUT A MISTAKE I MIGHT CONTINUE TO MAKE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE UNLESS someone straightens me out upon the reality and for this I THANK YOU!!!

It's even WORSE in person as I am a daunting physical individual so very often this causes issues that not need occcur.

Before I left to come over to this HELL HOLE......I wanted to eat as much as I possibly could as even though my diet consists of almost all Protein and Veggies and Dairy but very little Fructose......before I go on a JOB I CARBO BOOST......as according to the chart my 6 foot 2 inch 238 lbs body of all muscle and heavy bone needs over 2500 calories or so......EVEN IF I WAS IN BED ALL DAY WATCHING TV as READING which I prefer to do BURNS MORE CALORIES than just watching TV.....so I need to take in around 2400 to 2500 Calories a DAY just so I don't LOOSE WEIGHT!!!!

Anyways.....I appreciate learning new things and I appreciate when a member POLITELY addresses a mistake or misunderstanding I might have.

So thanks.

AboveAlpha

 

Well, first of all you have to realize I do not argue in here, I debate. That means an open mind, and trying to see all sides (even if I do not agree with it). And in cases like this I slip into "Instructor Mode" and try to inform, not into some kind of argument mode and try to bash the other into submission. I find the Showa era of Japan fascinating, the way a small group of people bent the will of an entire country into achieving an Empire. And how in only a few short decades the nation went from a medievel feudal society into one of the most powerful on the planet.

Literally, 19th century Japan went from the cultural equivelent of knights in wood armor on horseback and serfs tilling the fields while the merchant class lived in wood and paper houses to a modern nation with steam ships, trains, and a navy capable of taking out one of the most powerful European navies. All in a single century (in fact, most of that in the last 40 years of the century).

Now to take it a step further, imagine Ancient Egypt or the Roman Empire suddenly gaining that kind of power, without the Renaissance first? No "Age of Enlightenment". God-Rulers gaining the power of a modern military. But in the case of Japan, a God-Ruler with no direct power, worshiped from afar as the intermediary between them and Heaven as the "advisors" relieve him of the dullness of actually ruling over his people.

I do greatly respect the Japanese for what they did before and during WWII. And I try to understand their mindset as much as possible, even going so far as using their own phrases as much as possible (notice I always refer to Emperor Hirohito as "Emperor Showa"). Because in Japan that is how he is addressed now, and in another 20 years if you go to Japan and try to talk about Emperor Hirohito many will likely be confused and not know who you are talking about.

Much like if I started to talk about Emperor Mutsuhito. I bet nobody in here other then 1 or 2 would even recognize the name. But I bet that most have at least heard of the "Meiji Restoration", which was during the reign of Emperor Meiji.

But when alive, he was Emperor Mutsuhito, his Reign Name was Meiji, which means "Enlightened Rule". The last Emperor, Hirohito choose the Reign Name Showa, which means "Period of enlightened peace". The current Emperor, Akihito choose the Reign Name Heisei, which means "Universal Peace". And when he dies, he will become Emperor Heisei.

And this may all sound like nonsense to most in here, but understanding this relationship between Emperors past and present, and how they relate to them is a major part of their culture. For most Westerners trying to understand japanese culture, it really is like Federation Officers trying to understand Klingons. Most of the references we know really do not apply. But you have to at least try to get into their minds to understand why they did the things they did, from the national level of going to war against multiple opponants at once, to civilian families throwing themselves off of cliffs to avoid being captured.

The closest thing I can think of in Western Culture that is even close to this level of fanaticism would be the holdouts at Masada.

 

The thing is most Americans were isolationist prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. They didn't want to get involved, our industry and army were still in a peace time mode although FDR was doing his darnest to get us into it.

Without Pearl Harbor we probably would have continued just to look inward and take care of our business and not build up our military or even engage in the Manhattan project. The military power we had toward the end of the war wasn't there at the beginning and it would not have been developed without Pearl Harbor. Back then most Americans were happy just to stay within their borders. No more World Wars was quite a cry heard loud and clear. Pearl Harbor changed that.

 

Actually, we were already involved in a massive build-up by the time of Pearl Harbor.

The US Army was at 189,839 in 1939, 269,023 in 1940, and at the time of Pearl Harbor was 1,462,315. The Marines had swelled from 19,432 to 54,359 in the same amount of time. The US was by 1940 already involved in a massive armament upgrade program, and often times using Lend-Lease as a way for us to dispose of our older equipment and replace it with new equipment.

That is one reason why when we did enter the war, much of our equipment was already of a modern configuration. We were not doing the equivelent of charging at the attacking enemy with horse cavalry because that is all we had. We even had by the start of US involvement in the war all 4 of the iowa class battleships laid down and under construction.

And the Manhattan project was also already underway, having started in October 1939.

 

Summer 1989; I buy a movie ticket in Frankfurt...Germany in case anyone is wondering where that is.

The place is all but empty as it's a matinee and the film has been out a while. I like to sit towards the back and center to the screen. The shows about to start and the usher tells me (in German) I must sit in the assigned seat written on the ticket. I knew enough German at the time to order food and exchange pleasantries and once he figured me out as a Yank, he spoke in broken English.

"you must sit in the seat on the ticket"

I look around and there are maybe 10 other people in the theater; it was clear I was not in anyone's assigned seat..but rules are rules and when in Rome, so to speak. I moved to the seat number written on the ticket. Not my ideal choice but I consider myself as an ambassador to the U.S., so why make a federal case out of having to move.

Long story short...the Germans, from my experience, are very orderly, somewhat humorless, and big on rules. I would envision that had they won WW2, we'd be living in a more orderly World, or at least a more orderly Europe, with little humor, and lots of rules..and we'd have assigned seating in our movie theaters.

 

This was actually the norm at one time, even in the US.

When I first started to go to cinemas in the mid 1970's (my family was always the drive-in type), all of the seats had numbers on them. And during first showings, seating was indeed assigned (I went there a few nights after Star Wars came out and was assigned a seat). And even today, most of the first run theaters in Hollywood have assigned seating. The El Capitan, Chinese, Egyptian, and Cinerama all have assigned seating during peak hours and viewings.

 

I'm 50, and don't recall assigned seating here in the States, but clearly it was the norm at one time, I don't doubt you. I was kind of floored the first time I was told to move to my assigned seat...I was used to it at sporting events of course. Some tickets cost more than others depending on the view at a sporting event, it was a new experience at the movies.

 

I suspect things would have evolved pretty much just as they have. But, we gotta have our wars.

 

Interesting

 

So in your mind how did the Japanese, with something like a dozen and a half carriers, beat the US which had about 130 carriers?