What if Germany and Japan were victorious in WWll ?

Well it's a good thing that the submarine base in San Diego is across from North Island on Point Loma not on the other side the Coronado Bay Bridge

I believe our attack subs for the Pacific are based in San Diego while the ICBM boomers are based in Bangor Naval Submarine Base in Puget Sounds, Washington state.

 

Remember, I am talking scenarios. And what is "crossing the line"?

Well, consider this. Prior to 9-11, nobody ever seriously thought of using a passenger jet liner to crash into buildings. Other then Tom Clancey.

And the fact that we have already had chemical weapons used against our troops is not much of a secret. Although nobody really talks about it, it is no secret now that the most likely cause of "Gulf War Syndrome" was exposure to Sarin missiles launced by Iraq. And what was done in that incident?

Now imagine a biological attack, and once again I am going off of a story by Tom Clancey. In his scenario, it was Ebola released, on the heels of an outbreak in Africa. Release location was not a bomb or missile strike, but releases primarily in airport terminals. So it looked like an outbreak from people traveling from Africa then spreading via airlines (an actual real fear in disease containment in the 21st century). How long would it take in real life to track back such an event? Weeks? Months?

And what would our response be if the real perp was discovered weeks or months later? I doubt we would "respond in kind" after that long of a period of time.

Remember, I am not thinking conventionally, but you apparently are. One of the beautiful things about submarines is the fact that it can be damned hard to determine the nationality of them. Launch the missiles underwater and di-di-mao from the region immediately afterwards. Many countries use Soviet-Russian subs, and use variants of the same missiles used by Russia today. Trying to determine the actual country of origin would be a nightmare unless they had hard intelligence or a nation claiming responsibility.

In the Clancey book, the only reason the perp nation was identified in the Ebola outbreak was primarilly through intelligence, not forensics. And with the many various forms of Flu starting to pop up now (ironically-interestingly enough most sourcing from China) who is to say how such an outbreak would be viewed? This is not me being paranoid (I do not believe China would start a war with a biological attack), I am simply looking at possible scenarios and examples, not saying that was how things would happen.

 

And The Lone Gunmen.

Pilot original air date March 4,2001. While The Lone Gunmen are thwarted in their attempt to steal a computer chip by Yves Adele Harlow, John Fitzgerald Byers receives news of his father's death and the trio soon find themselves unravelling a government conspiracy concerning an attempt to fly a commercial aircraft into the Twin Towers, with increased arms sales for the United States as an intended result.

 

Did Al Qaeda actually come up with the idea from the Hollywood Left ?

 

Nah. AQ had their plan in motion at least 2 years prior, and it was based on an even larger plan they had in the 1990's to blow up several commercial aircraft simultaneously. However it does drive the conspiracy nuts crazy.

 

The CDC analysis would pinpoint a Nation of origin.

The method of delivery would pinpoint who did it.

Unless someone was completely insane.

AboveAlpha

 

I know of that, I have the entire series on DVD.

And do not forget Steve jackson.



But as you know I do not play the conspiracy game, do not believe in them. But the fact is that most "surprise attacks" are such because the attackers breaks the mold and does something completely unexpected. Otherwise, it would not be a surprise.

 

It would? And would pinpoint to nation of origin and delibery method?

How did Measels enter the US and start an outbreak last year? Where did it come from, and how was it spread?

You seem to give the CDC almost mythical god-like abilities they simply do not have.

 

Much of the Chemical Weapons that are now in Syria came from Iraq.

This was very unexpected as the Syrian Assad Regime was considered by Saddam as BLOOD ENEMIES....and I personally was against the U.S. Invasion of Iraq but we watched in REAL TIME SATELLITE FEED AS A MASSIVE CONVOY OF IRAQI CHEMICAL WEAPONS drove from Iraq and over the boarder to Syria right before the U.S. Invasion of Iraq began.

The CDC can pinpoint who made specific Chemical Weapons that might be used as an analysis of the specific Chemical Composition of the Chemical weapon be it Mustard Gas or VX is possible.

They can tell if it was made in the former Soviet Union or if it was made by Iraq or Syria...etc.

Just like the DOE can determine if a NUKE went off....where the Uranium or Plutonium was enriched and by what process.

Biological Weapons are more difficult but they too can be determined where they were made and by whom but there is always a possibility some rougue scientist might be working for a 3rd World Nation.

AboveAlpha

 

Uhhh, who said anything about a chemical attack? I clearly said biological.

And sorry, the CDC would have nothing to do with a chemical attack. Chemical attacks are not diseases.

The leader of any search into the source of a chemical attack would be the US Army, not the CDC.

I am just speechless now to be honest.

 

If, and it's a big if, you actually did watch a real time satellite feed showing a convoy of Iraqi chemical weapons being moved across the border, than I imagine you've just revealed classified information on a public web forum. However I'll be charitable and assume you didn't.

 

Given the ever increasing activities of 'lone wolf' idiots and crazies, I've cringed more than a few times over some of the posts here that aren't about anything classified in regards to various bases and sites around the country and overseas and their characteristics, but wouldn't be common knowledge to the average variety of semi-literate cranks and loons that infest innernutz forums.It would be best to just let them do their own 'research' finding these places than putting ideas and possibilities in their heads re things that might be within reach of their particular neighborhoods.

 

I was half asleep when I posted that....the CMA is responsible for Chemical Weapons analysis.

CDC strictly for Biological.

I was in sleepy time mode.

AboveAlpha

 

That intel. is no longer Classified and anyone here can look up how that large convoy of Iraqi Chemical Weapons left Iraq and crossed the Syrian Boarder.

It was a HUGE SURPRISE as Saddam and Assad both the now dead Father and Son considered each other BLOOD ENEMIES!!

But as for the Convoy info....you can Google it now.

AboveAlpha

 

Now you're talking about two different things. But whatever...

 

By getting the bomb first? The Japanese did have a bomb project, in fact they had two, and there are persistent rumors they actually exploded one in Korea (the Northern part, so we will probably never really know).

The Germans may have gotten it first too, but that is more unlikely, as Heisenberg did not believe a bomb like the American bomb was possible.

But in any case that is about the ONLY way the Axis could have won WWII, which was largely a race to see who got the bomb first. Germany and Japan are both resource poor nations and incapable of mounting decades long wars. Few nations are, in fact, but Russia and America were, at the time. The key mistake of the Axis may have been the idea that a negotiated peace would be possible after a long and bitter conflict.

An Axis victory would probably have us ending up with the world as Philip K. Dick saw it in The Man in the High Castle. The West Coast would be given to Japanese influence and not awful but not pleasant. The East would be German dominated by a revived Naziism and something of a Hell on Earth.

 

Japan never intended to invade or to occupy the CONUS, not even the Hawaiian Islands. Japan's goal was Asia for the Asians and for the British, U.S. and the Dutch to get out of the western Pacific rim so Japan could have unlimited access to the resources of Asia and to control Asian trade.

Japan't war plans were simple, to draw out the U.S. Navy fleet and engage that fleet in one decisive naval battle in or around the Marshal Islands believing they would defeat the U.S. Navy in that one battle and the USA would sue for peace. That battle never happened. America's war plans " Plan Orange" didn't include that battle taking place just as "Plan Orange" called for not reinforcing the Philippine Islands at the out break of war but allowing to fall to the Japanese.

Hitler had no plans of invading or occupying America, Hitler always had his eyes on the East. Germany only declared war on America because they were honoring the "Tripartite Pact." The only reason why there were German troops in North Africa was again the "Tripartite Pact" and that Italy couldn't accomplish their mission.

Hitler was against British, French style of colonial capitalism but looked upon the United States as an example. It's all in "Mein Kampf."

But Hitler did have an agenda of eliminating Stalin and internationalist socialist that was in power in the Soviet Union. Hitler was a socialist and despised communism as not being a true form of socialism.

It's just a myth that the Axis were going to conquer the world and divide the world between Germany, Italy and Japan.

 

Germany had only developed a very feeble fission reaction by 1845, and were still years behind the U.S.; they didn't have the industrial infrastructure to have a bomb before 1950 at the earliest. The war would have been long over before then. Ditto for the Japanese. The U.S. was over a decade ahead of everybody else.

The U.S. did not have '130 carriers' at the time Japan attacked Pearl. That's ridiculous.

On 7 December 1941, the U.S. Navy had seven aircraft carriers (CVs) and one aircraft escort vessel (AVG) in commission. The CVs were considered warships and the AVG was considered an auxiliary vessel. In addition to these eight ships, the keels of five other CVs had been laid. The names, history, status and aviation units of each of these ships is described below.

http://www.bluejacket.com/ww2_12-07-41_carriers.html

There was no chance of either a Japanese or German occupation of U.S. coasts, even at the impossible chance either could have won the war. A look at U.S. and British production of resources and military hardware makes it blatantly obvious neither could have won, and we could have won without the USSR as well. FDR erred too far on the side of caution at Teheran and Yalta, and gave away too much to Stalin for his secondary part in the war effort. Stalin would still sitting at the Kursk line without U.S. and Brit supplies. He could never have launched an offensive of any significance.

Meanwhile, by 1944 the U.S. could attack at will over the Atlantic and Med coastlines, and even from the Black Sea if it so chose to do so. We could open up several fronts and fight on them, and we did just that.

 

The fact that the Japanese had a very advanced Atomic Weapon Program and that they were researching what would have been a succesful bomb in the pattern of the Manhattan project is not only a historical fact, but that it amazes me how few seem to even be aware of it. Not even the US at the time were aware that they were literally racing the Japanese to see who got there first. And the fact that many of the scientists, equipment and notes captured in Korea after the Soviets invaded has long been suspect in how they got the bomb after only 3 years of research.

And people tend to forget that in war there are 3 possible outcomes. One is Victory (the US in WWII), one is Defeat (France at the start of WWII), and finally you have Armistice, where both sides agree to stop fighting, but neither side neither wins or looses.

In WWI, Germany did not Surrender, it did not loose. There was an Armistice. If there was no US Atomic Bomb, then I bet that the war would have ended in 1946 with an Armistice with Japan after the capture of Kyushu after Operation Olympic. Even the most optimistic predictions had over 450.000 casualties and over 109,000 deaths on the Allied side alone. And this only for taking the island of Kyushu, roughly the size of Connecticut.

An Armistice would not have done the most important thing in ending the war, the removal of the Taisei Yokusankai. So we could have expected another 10-25 years of peace, then be having to fight Japan all over again when both sides did indeed possess atomic weapons.

 

Actually, some of the "long term" plans for Japan after an Axis Victory was to "liberate" Hawaii. Kick out the Americans, restore the Kaʻiulani Dynasty as monarchs, and let them rest inside of their Sphere of Influence while not actually being members of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. But this was long-term, likely not expected to happen until the late 1950's or early 1960's.

 

I never said the US had 130 carriers at the time of PH. The US did though obtain 130 carriers over the course of the war. I don't believe the Japanese even reached 20.

 

During the entire time of the war, Japan had a total of 30 aircraft carriers, including escort carriers. That includes 11 Fleet Carriers, 9 Light Carriers, and 10 Escort Carriers.

The US on the other hand had over 100 Escort Carriers.

Like Germany, Japan was obsessed with building the "biggest and best" of their main fighting equipment (in this case ships instead of tanks and artillery), and held with disdain anything that did not meet those specifications. The US on the other hand made a compromise. Build some equipment as the "biggest and best" (USS Midway), and at the same time making some that were basically disposible (USS Suwannee) to increase the numbers of equipment and spread the risk.

 

Yeah, the value of the CVE was that you could stick them in fleets that it wasn't worth the bother sticking a Fleet Carrier to protect.

 

The likelihood the Japanese tested a bomb is zero. Those stories depend on some reports that were not verifiable then and still aren't, and based largely on rumor. Several things make it most likely BS, including the parts of the story that the Japanese had designed and built a centrifuge that operated at '100,000 rpm', and other weirdness. I'll try and find the actual reports, but they are hard to find, since Google would rather bring up thousands of pages of drivel from conspiracy sites and cranks, and only a few from the govt. records themselves. Mostly you'll get the gossip reported by a reporter named Snell and some Japanese guy who escaped in a fishing boat, allegedly from Korea, or the sites who claimed the Soviets took over the site and operated it until the Korean War broke out, and were shooting down U.S. planes and other dumb stuff. In any case, they were years away from developing one as well, and the war would have been long over.

 

And Stalin fully intended to eliminate Hitler and Germany as well. Hitler just jumped off first. Since both France and Britain would have automatically supported Stalin, they had to go, too.