What "Race" ?

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by NYCmitch25, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    Obviously hundreds of years of racism isn't going to go away over night. In fact the forum section "Race Relations" exemplifies that unintentionally since there is no such thing as a race. Not anymore. It's not like we look at species of golden labs and black labs and classify them by race. Dogs are the most varied species on the planet and yet we don't put them into racial groups. Why humans, why still, now? in 2013? Is this forum area named in such a way for convenience? Do they not know about Homo Sapiens being a species? Do we hold onto these notions for descriptive or traditional reasons alone?

    The point is that we are no longer divided races, that myth has been debunked over time along with the notion of racial superiority. In Guns Germs and Steal Yali asks this question, and J. Diamond answers it quite succinctly. So this year, for Christmas, give all the racists in your family the following book.. LOL OK , maybe not but you should read it if you are wondering about how we are truly different, or the lack there of. Or how Whites had more "cargo" when entering the new worlds. Now if you think we all that different, as a species we are not, this is likely due to "recent" near H. Sapien extinction events. I'm very interested in this topic as you can tell. You should be too ! :p

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. PropagandaMachine

    PropagandaMachine New Member

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    Good book, make the image smaller you're freezing my computer.
     
  3. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Well, race isn't a social construct despite what others may tell you.

    Race is a difference in biology. Which over time inspires different cultures as well.

    Racial supremacy? This is garbage, no race is superior to another. But they are different and have differences. And those differences can be quantified in a number of ways.

    Not an expert in genetics, but I would wager there is a small difference in the genetic material between the races. Obviously they can still breed and produce fertile offspring. Still the same species obviously but must be some sort of differences in gene expression to produce the different biological traits.

    Yes we do not have different 'races' of dogs, but we do have different breeds of them. All of which can breed with each other as well. Each breed has its own set of specific characteristics while retaining the commonalities of the race of canines.

    So perhaps 'race' is the wrong word for humans, would you prefer 'breed' instead?
     
  4. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    The point is that we have it all wrong. It's like putting Irish wolf hounds with tea cup Yorkies because they both come from the UK. Or taking every dog that is black (chow chow, lab, chihuahua, etc.) and calling it a black lab.
     
  5. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Is this a book advertisement?
     
  6. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    Yes. Everyone should read it.... ;-)
     
  7. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Basically, I heard the highlights from my mother, and I more or less agree with the contents provided she was correct in her summation.

    But what it doesn't address(if I'm correct) is that there are other reasons other than the geology for success. Africa has a wealth of resources. Yet the bulk of the people there are no where near that of europe or america in standards of civilization.

    Geology is not the end all be all. It can sure help, but is in no way the only factor in a civilization's success.
     
  8. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since all these alleged 'races can - and very much have - interbreed/interbred, what on earth is the use of dividing people up in this artificial way? Cultures are all that matters - there is more genetic difference within these fanasised groups of yours than between them, so why make all this fuss about nothing?
     
  9. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    Well, why is that? The tendency is to assume superiority. At one recent point in time, Europeans assumed they were the center of evolution. For example, why were the H. Neanderthals driven to extinction when H. Sapiens entered their space? Did we possess something they did not? Are they even a part of the Homo group? What about the native Americans? They were destroyed by the diseases brought by the West by carriers of African and European background. Why was South American Empire taken without a single loss of life? Why were some people never working on Science or art? Yali asks Jared Diamond this question, "why does the white man have more cargo?" In other words, why is it that they have all these things like shovels etc. that his people do not? You are asking the same question, the book addresses this question quite well. If you want me to explain it, I can.
     
  10. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    I think if you read my post again you'll have answered your questions. I organize things accordingly because not all things behave the same. Black, orientals, and europeans all have certain quirks that make them unique, both mentally and physically. I responded differently to each because I have learned what yields the best outcome for me.

    Organization is a simply human trait, I doubt it is going anywhere anytime soon.

    Out of curiosity, what does "Gobeithiaw y ddaw ydd wyf." mean in english? I suspect it is Gaelic, or Welsh perhaps? But I haven't the foggiest idea what it means?
     
  11. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Old Poem, old spelling: 'I am in hopes of what is to come'. Since a very high proportion of modern people are a mix, what are their 'quirks'?
     
  12. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    I suspect people aren't as mixed as you declare they are although it is certainly on the rise. But as for their quirks, I suspect that those who are mixed have an amalgam of them all. But those who are more or less pure bred are less mysterious and easier to categorize.

    To name a few? Aggression, physical stamina, strength, intelligence, coordination, forethought, vulneralility to sunburn these are the main ones that come to mind.
     
  13. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    You didn't say much but I don't think you understand the picture fully, I don't argue against what you are saying entirely, you raise some interesting questions. Someone might say that they are pure swiss but that in itself is amalgamation of four distinct groups of people. Also, the similarities may not be as similar on the outside and obviously doesn't honor our man made land borders. I feel that your argument derails a bit more when you try to assert that people don't have these same aspects across the spectrum of their halogroup for instance. To assert that blacks are dumb or smart or better at basketball or worse at it is missing the point. For example, in Africa the tallest people in the world and the shortest exist. Intelligence is a range , everyone is more or less within the same range. If you want to continue to hold onto notions of abilities within distinct groups, that is fine, I would rather rate people on actual ability, and know that I can achieve what others have through hard work and determination.
     
  14. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    I understand the issue just fine, but asserting these things will start a flame war, and I'm just not in the mood for that right now. Certain realities exist when race is considered. Those who pretend that race doesn't exist are usually corrected later in life by reality - whether they acknowledge it or not.

    I do rate people on ability, but I have noticed certain trends that are particular to certain racial groups. And I adjust my behavior accordingly when in the presence of them. Experience is a ruthless teacher. Some call me a racist, I'd call me a racial realist. I don't go out of my way to make other races have a hard time, but I'll not cater to their every whim because of their skin color. Apparently this causes friction for some.
     
  15. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    OK Let me be a little less polite, you are very wrong. There are a couple of MAJOR things you are missing.

    YES cultural influences cause say black Americans to act in certain ways, say in the deep south. Or, if say native Americans finding it hard to get ahead,etc. Or Asians are "smart". The point is that these are cultural not genetic differences. Another thing is something called illusory correlation, this is where you falsely match data to support a preconceived notion. For example, if someone believes that every time there is a full moon, the "crazies" come out. This not true btw. BUT, if there is a full moon, this person who believes in the full moon "theory" will look for someone to match those traits and find it "true". You are doing this shamefully towards other groups of people by holding notions and finding people unwittingly to match them.
     
  16. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    ya it is and relatively modern one at that...

    it has nothing to do with culture.nada

    no they can't, appearance is purely superficial

    obviously your no expert, there are no races, just a single specie.

    are blonds a different breed than redheads or brunettes? breeds of dogs come from forced/selective inbreeding brothers/sisters cousins etc so if you want to start a breed of humans have sex with your cousins...

    the correct and only term is Homo Sapien Sapien
     
  17. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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  18. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    I understand the difference between correlation and causation just fine. And I'll acknowledge that there are exceptions to the rule. They are becoming more common as educational standard increases.

    Nevertheless my adjustments to behavior regarding certain groups has paid off, for both them and myself.

    Why bother trying to convince me of something that runs contrary to my own memories? It might work where you live, but it didn't work where I've lived in the past.

    Are you assuming I do not extend courtesy to others and treat them cordially? Because I do until they prove themselves not worthy of it - regardless of faith, or race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The flame war has started...I'll not participate in this weirdness. The other guy at least brought of the correct notion of paying attention to correlation. I can speak with him.
     
  19. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    lol ya avoid the obvious I've posted a simplified explanation...you make genetic claims/assumptions yet admit you know nothing of genetics all the while ignoring the established science and questioning it's validity because it doesn't agree with your "race" based opinions... now that's flaming...what's next, are you going to question the validity of gravity?

    a subjective person with some critical thinking would examine the scientific literature on DNA/genetics/anthropology before making claims based in racism...I supply a link to an excellent piece by an expert Jared Diamond and you ignore it why?...you know more than he does? or because you don't like what he has to say...
     
  20. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Show me the unbiased research. I'm skeptical if it even exists.

    If there are differences in biological appearance/function, there must be a genetic link to it. This is basic biology, I don't have to be an expert.

    You got your head deep enough in the sand or would you like me to shovel more on for you? But I'll check out this Jared Diamond character in all fairness.
     
  21. EileenWright

    EileenWright New Member

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    You may be aware that liberals intentionally try to divide Americans into race, gender, perversions, etc. to advance their own, selfish, causes and to make them FEEL better about themselves. Get rid of liberals and you get rid of racism...
     
  22. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    [​IMG]

    LOL JK
     
  23. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    why are you looking to put a political slant on science? is a secret motive behind the study of genetics? was Gregor Mendal a closet socialist/liberal with secret agenda? genetics has been a field of study 160years I'm quite sure there is lots of research available for you to peruse...

    a horse, donkey and zebra all look like each other that's the same basic biology but they're all different species...physical appearance makes up a tiny portion of our DNA, the physical differences between us are insignificant/superficial...

    I was genetics whiz back in my Uni days and you who admits to knowing nothing on the topic implies you know more than me? :roll:

    :thumbsup:

    according to your racial theory /basic biology where does DNA/Genetics place these pygmy people?
    JARAWA30_medium.jpg
    your basic biology would say african blacks but you'd be wrong
     
  24. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Why would you discourage leaving a stone unturned? For a topic as controversial as 'race' there is bound to be lies, on both sides. Corruption is not a discriminator, all are susceptible. Scientists, like politicians can be bought and paid for and directed accordingly. Only a fool would believe otherwise.

    I'm familiar with the equine breeds. The physical differences between humans although 'insignificant/superficial' are still differences. Ignoring that will not make it go away. Interbreeding eventually will, and destroy all diversity in the process. What a monotonous world to live in.

    Never implied any such thing.

    Illuminate me, oh enlightened one.:roll:

    That link you posted earlier had a few things right, but one glaringly obvious flaw. You should research forensic anthropology in regards to determining race. You might not like what you find.
     
  25. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    I think from your previous post we are actually in agreement. However, I am really just pointing out a slippery slope, sure folks from certain economic backgrounds or cultural areas will exhibit certain traits, but one must not apply too liberally .. It could hinder behavior towards accomplishing other goals or waste energy or even get yourself a murder trial (Zimmerman).
     

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