What system is worse? Facism or Socialism?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Turin, Sep 10, 2021.

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What system is worse? Facism or Socialism?

  1. Facism - I lean left

    7 vote(s)
    63.6%
  2. Facism - I lean right

    1 vote(s)
    9.1%
  3. Socialism - I lean left

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Socialism - I lean right

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
  1. Turin

    Turin Well-Known Member

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    If you had to pick which of these is worse, which would it be and why?

    Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries.[4] Opposed to anarchism, democracy, liberalism, and Marxism, fascism is placed on the far right-wing within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5][6]

    Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[9] A fascist state is led by a strong leader (such as a dictator) and a martial law government composed of the members of the governing fascist party to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[9] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views imperialism, political violence and war as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[10][11] Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and economic interventionist policies.[12] The extreme authoritarianism and nationalism of fascism often manifests a belief in racial purity or a master race, usually synthesized with some variant of racism or bigotry of a demonized "Other"; the idea of racial purity has motivated fascist regimes to commit massacres, forced sterilizations, genocides, mass killings, or forced deportations against a perceived "Other".[13][14][15]




    Socialism is a political, social, and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership[1][2][3] of the means of production[4][5][6][7] and democratic control, such as workers' self-management of enterprises.[8][9] It includes the political theories and movements associated with such systems.[10] Social ownership can be public, collective, cooperative, or of equity.[11] While no single definition encapsulates the many types of socialism,[12] social ownership is the one common element.[1][13][14] The types of socialism vary based on the role of markets and planning in resource allocation, on the structure of management in organizations, and from below or from above approaches, with some socialists favouring a party, state, or technocratic-driven approach. Socialists disagree on whether government, particularly existing government, is the correct vehicle for change.[8][15]

    Socialist systems are divided into non-market and market forms.[16] Non-market socialism substitutes factor markets and money with integrated economic planning and engineering or technical criteria based on calculation performed in-kind, thereby producing a different economic mechanism that functions according to different economic laws and dynamics than those of capitalism.[17][18][19][20] A non-market socialist system eliminates the inefficiencies and crises traditionally associated with capital accumulation and the profit system in capitalism.[21][22][23][24] The socialist calculation debate, originated by the economic calculation problem,[25][26] concerns the feasibility and methods of resource allocation for a planned socialist system.[27][28][29] By contrast, market socialism retains the use of monetary prices, factor markets and in some cases the profit motive, with respect to the operation of socially owned enterprises and the allocation of capital goods between them. Profits generated by these firms would be controlled directly by the workforce of each firm or accrue to society at large in the form of a social dividend.[30][31][32] Anarchism and libertarian socialism oppose the use of the state as a means to establish socialism, favouring decentralisation above all, whether to establish non-market socialism or market socialism.[33][34]

    Socialist politics has been both internationalist and nationalist in orientation; organised through political parties and opposed to party politics; at times overlapping with trade unions and at other times independent and critical of them; and present in both industrialised and developing nations.[35] Social democracy originated within the socialist movement,[36] supporting economic and social interventions to promote social justice.[37][38] While retaining socialism as a long-term goal,[39][40][41][42][43] since the post-war period it has come to embrace a Keynesian mixed economy within a predominantly developed capitalist market economy and liberal democratic polity that expands state intervention to include income redistribution, regulation and a welfare state.[44] Economic democracy proposes a sort of market socialism, with more democratic control of companies, currencies, investments and natural resources.[45]
     
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  2. Turin

    Turin Well-Known Member

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    I chose fascism as being the worst political idea of the two.

    I personally believe this because I think that a homogenous country is both boring, and dangerous to the minority citizens. In a facist system, thinking that is not inline with the societal norms ( if we take 1940's Italy as an example ) will often times be considered a crime, and result in jail or execution.
     
  3. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    I would say communism simply because fascist societies don't tend to stop their population leaving?
     
  4. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Both are pretty bad but Socialism at least TRIES to achieve some degree social justice, (though it never succeeds) Socialism at least pretends to believe in the principals embodied in the French Enlightenment. Fascism regards social justice as the worst hypocrisy of the "woke" movement and is downright proud of how much and how thoroughly it can embody Orwell's description of Fascism "A boot stamping on a human face, forever"

    Fascism is the worst. But again, there is little clear difference between the two in the end.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  5. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

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    Stalin was a hard core socialist - so much so that he would have folks shot that disagreed with him.
     
  6. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I would think that the Jews who escaped Nazi Germany with little more than the clothes on their backs might not agree they were "let" to leave. It's a good deal simpler just to take somebody's possessions and leave him at the border than to send the cattle cars straight away.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  7. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    So would Hitler, Mussolini and Franco. One thing that distinguishes dictators is they kill people. Mass murderers the lot, just the rhetoric changes.
     
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  8. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which one better prevents other people from having authority over what I may do and what I may own? The system that more restricts the individual is the worse system.

    ...and both these systems, historically, are pretty bad for the individual.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  9. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They're both good.
     
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  10. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    OK that's funny!
     
  11. Big Richard

    Big Richard Well-Known Member

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    What’s worse? Xidenism
     
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  12. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If one judges Capitalism or Democracy by the lies, illegal wars, and treachery meted out by the USA then what will be our opinion of it? Do we say, "That's what Capitalism is" or do we ignore it and stick with the ideological definition? The same is true of any other political entity whether by definition or by example. It all depends upon who or what is running the government at any one time.
     
  13. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trumpism, which is a form of fascism.
     
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  14. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well the definitions the OP picked are straight from Wikipedia, and they seem a bit wanting to me. By the definitions, neither Fascism or Socialism actually exist. So this thread seems more appropriate for pithy one liners.
     
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  15. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    It is? How exactly?
     
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  16. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    Except that those Jews were allowed to leave with their lives. If you were a Soviet refusenik they would shoot you to stop you crossing the border.
     
  17. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You got that right, Mike.
     
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  18. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    Probably because the victors write the history, very people know that some Jews were high ranking members in Germany's National Socialist Party(1) and about 150,000 Jews served in Germany's WW 2 military with many earning Germany's highest honors and reaching some of the highest ranks(2). All of this happened with the full knowledge and approval of Hitler and the German High Command.

    It may be just as surprising that Hitler had "extremely good relationships" with other Jews(3) including a young Jewish girl,
    Rosa Nienau, who shared his birthday and became a sort of "pen pal"(4).




    (1). “List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent

    EXCERPT “Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of full and partial Jewish descent. “ CONTINUED



    (2) “Hitler’s Jewish Army”
    http://counterpsyops.com/2013/02/14/...-hitlers-army/

    EXCERPT “Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval.

    In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded(*)Germany’s highest military honor, the Knight’s Cross.

    Jews also served in the Nazi police and security forces as ghetto police(Ordnungdienst)(*)and concentration camp guards(*)(kapos).

    So what happens to the claim that Hitler sought to exterminate all Jews, when he allowed some of them to join in his struggle against Bolshevism and International finance capitalism?

    “If the Jews were permitted to serve in Hitler’s armed forces then there could not have been a Holocaust.”CONTINUED


    (3) “5 Jews Hitler Actually Liked”
    https://historyofyesterday.com/5-jews-hitler-actually-liked-c702217e1aa5

    EXCERPT “Surprisingly, during this time in his life, Hitler also had extremely good relationships with Jewish people. At his house in Vienna, almost all of his friends were Jewish, with Josef Neumann being the closest.

    And when Hitler took over Germany, he spared some of his old Jewish friends, kept some in his party, and even formed new friendships.” CONTINUED


    (4) "Remarkable tale of Hitler's young Jewish friend"
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46192941
     
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  19. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jews, as well as others, whose expertise was an advantage to the Third Reich were deemed "Honorary Aryans".
     
  20. Turin

    Turin Well-Known Member

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    1.) Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete
    2.) A fascist state is led by a strong leader. How often has this EXACT PHRASE been used by Trumpers to describe him? And how many dictators has Trump publicly admired, and, by extension, his followers.
    3.) The extreme authoritarianism and nationalism of fascism often manifests a belief in racial purity or a master race, usually synthesized with some variant of racism or bigotry of a demonized "Other"; the idea of racial purity has motivated fascist regimes to commit massacres, forced sterilizations, genocides, mass killings, or forced deportations against a perceived "Other".[13][14][15]


    Trump and Trumpers meet at least these 3 qualifications. More I am sure if I really took the time to pick it apart. That at the very least makes them Facist "lite"
     
  21. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't think that little Rosa Nienau (in photo) was ever regarded as an Honorary Aryan or that every one of the 150,000 Jews who served in Hitler's military were made Honorary Aryans.

    Do you know of any objective sources on the subject?

    Thanks,





    upload_2021-9-11_11-15-55.jpeg

     
  22. Joe knows

    Joe knows Newly Registered

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    I’m going to point out a couple problems with this OP. First of all it’s a copy and paste from Wikipedia, you may as well allow all users of “Political Forum” to edit your OP to read what they feel it should read.

    Secondly, no right wing political leaders in the United States are arguing for fascism. You may claim they are but none are openly advocating for it like the left is advocating for socialism.

    Moreover, fascists have historically placed gun control as a top priority. They also try and outlaw labor Unions. None of which are a sign of our times in our right wing politics. We are far more at risk of socialism and our loss of private property rights by the left.
     
  23. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think they were.
    I'll see what I can find. :)

    EDIT: This doesn't give any numbers but it does mention the phenomenon.
    https://www.sources.com/SSR/Docs/SSRW-Honourary_Aryan.htm
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  24. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    How is that different than a socialist country, I use the USSR as an example.
     
  25. Bezukhov

    Bezukhov Active Member

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    The worst system is any that raises a club over your head to: 1) Take things from you that you don't want to give voluntarily, 2) Make you do something you don't want to do, 3) Stop you from doing something that isn't hurting anyone else.

    I think that describes every system ever

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021

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