What's up with repubs opposing the stimulus bill?

You're one of those people who blame everyone else for your own decisions in life. Each of us make decisions every day that effect our lives and blaming our errant decisions on money or others is BS...

 

Wrong again. I didn't blame anyone for my decisions but reality seems to be hard for you to grasp.

 

Nope.

You live in fantasy land that requires eliminating the human element in order for your utopian dreams to be realized.

 

Yours is in fact the fantasy world which thinks free markets can remain the dominant paradigm, when the growing population is increasingly straining the planet's ecological limits.

Time's up for your fantasy world.

As for the "human element": "What a Chimera is man! What a novelty, a monster, a chaos, a contradiction, a prodigy! Judge of all things, an imbecile worm; depository of truth, and sewer of error and doubt; the glory and refuse of the universe.” (Blaise Pascal)

Hmm....the ancient sage said "know thyself" ....a necessity if we are to successfully manage the "human element"....

 

Note my underlined.

"Value of the wages paid", according to whom? No doubt the private sector free market.....
but there is a major debate among economists at present, as free market capitalism is increasingly failing the needs of society, not to say threatening the ecological survival of the planet itself.

Namely, (money) "value" versus (life-promoting) "usefulness".
Exhibit One:
Loyd Blankfein claimed he was doing "God's work" when millions of people were forced out of their homes during the GFC as a result of convulsions in the banking/finance industry.....
Exhibit 2
In this pandemic, we needed the essential workers - farmers, health workers, cleaners, drivers, utility maintenance workers - to maintain the economy during the lock-down. They are all "worth" many times more than the financial-industry spivs manipulating fancy derivatives to create money for their rich clients.

 

Ah, we get to the root of your agenda. Opposition to a free market system.

Oddly, the biggest growth in contributing emissions is from countries that AREN'T free market.

I am sure that you believe that if everybody would just give you complete power, you could solve all the worlds ills. This is a ridiculous level of arrogance.

The fact is, you believe so highly in your own opinion, you are incapable of seeing that a free market best represents the interests and agendas of everybody. It is the most equitable system related to collective driven policy.

And yes. You live in fantasy land. You desire to eliminate the "human element" in your drive for utopian goals. The fact is, not everybody is an athlete, not everybody is smart, not everybody works hard. People that are employed generally meet a certain level of production and efficiency or they wouldn't have a job. Some people that are not employed is because they choose not to be, or simply don't have the work ethic to sustain employment. All a guaranteed job does, is guarantee a paycheck because as you said there is no criteria or expectation for production beyond what the person is willing to contribute. Well guess what, some are willing to contribute zero.

And as is usual, the lofty ideals and platitudes of the blame everybody else because the fact remains that some people are just lazy schmucks.

 

You said "It is true. You base your decisions on what you see, hear and read. All run by money." Money never makes any decisions for me...I make all of my decisions! If I'm too stupid to understand fact from fiction, that's not a 'money' problem...that's a 'me' problem...

 

Not opposition, but management. eg "socialism with Chinese characteristics" built the world's most extensive high-speed rail network (as brilliant as Japan's, I'm told) in 2 decades, while the US 'ran out of funds' when only 40 miles of HS track was laid between SF and LA...due to pathetic free market nonsense. Likewise Texas; free market economics can't join Texas to the rest of the US grid, resulting in 50 deaths because the weather got cold for a week.

Growth? That's because they are growing faster than the democracies

And per capita Chinese CO2 emissions are HALF those of the US.

List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia

Production based emissions: US 16; China 8. (tons per capita)

No, you are displaying a ridiculous level of blindness to the effect of instinct on human behavior, and the steps we must take to save the planet from ourselves. Not to mention the ongoing slaughter of the world's children in war which is on your head (stuck in the sand as it is..). The UN chief yesterday lamented the failure of world leaders to deal with the Syrian disaster....with the US arming one side and Russia the other side in the conflict. They are the real criminals in the conflict, because it is within their power to end such devastating conflicts.

Your bleating about "freedom" makes me puke.

Absolute nonsense. Even high-flying Conservative mainstream free-marketeers like Mark Carney are acknowledging the failure of free markets to deal with the pressing global problems we face today.

...which is nothing more than an ideological rant based on classical economics and classical liberalism, to maintain an obsolete economic system that serves vested interests. Guess why 40% of the US population, in the wealthiest nation on the planet, can't find $400 from savings in an emergency...(hint: the vast majority of those people are NOT:
" just lazy schmucks".

Your fake self-interested - dressed up as "freedom" - ideology blinds you to the the reality that very few true innovators produce the essential wealth of a community eg food produced by c.2% of the population; robots account for c. 90% of factory output. Meanwhile the market pays bloated salaries to financial industry spivs who create little of value, in the real economy (most of them are mere manipulators of fancy derivatives - "financial weapons of mass destruction": W. Buffett).

No. Your ideological blindness is the cause of the present deteriorating social and ecological environment, with war and poverty creating a global refugee problem numbering in the 70 millions. Your solution? Build a wall..... pathetic, even while you need to maintain a protective barrier around the Capitol itself, the very seat of democracy....even more pathetic.


"...the glory and refuse of the universe".....It's plain to see where your ideology will lead the world.

 

Reps and Dems are both destroying the currency. They just fight over where the money should go.

 

I know it is difficult to teach you .. but politicians can't destroy the currency, unless the resources/goods/services on which to spend it are no longer available.

Last time I Iooked, the nation's (potential) productive capacity remains intact, in the US.

 

The US ran out of dollars? No no no. It made a decision that the dollars weren't well spent and halted funding. Two very different things. We never ran out of dollars.

You keep holding China up as like this golden goose that we should mimic them. One question. Have you ever lived in China? My guess no.

Exactly. Non-democratic countries are growing pollution contribution LESS than countries like China and India.

Yeah, not really. Plus, look at the US. Our emissions are declining while China's is skyrocketing.



List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia

Production based emissions: US 16; China 8. (tons per capita)

You're just like regurgitating liberal talking points. Are we talking about climate and CO2 emissions or the Syrian War? Pick a topic. Just throwing out talking points and screaming "you're blind" just makes you look desperate.

lol. Ah, another one. If everybody would just assume a submissive position to your agenda, you would save the world. Nah. No thanks. Everybody in the world, and the countries that represent them, get a vote on the agenda for the future. You don't have a monopoly on that. Luckily, I live in a country where my vote is counted with my elected officials and how I spend my money.

I don't need your saving, and I don't need your totalitarianism. In short, get over yourself.

If everybody agreed with you, Americans would be investing in solar and wind technologies like crazy. They aren't. Because they don't agree with you.

Ahh, we're shifting gears again. Because they over spend and live outside their means.

Can we stay on one topic?

Blah blah blah. "Your ideological blindness" blah blah blah.

You're right. You're so woke. You have it all figured out. If everybody on planet earth would just make you King, you would have it all figured out. Blah blah blah.

 

The italics around 'ran out of dollars ' were to indicate the failure of the current private-bank-funded free market system, incapable of funding environmentally/socially desirable infrastructure. The "invisible hand" free market - blind, by definition - is THE problem. The competitive, profit-driven, dumb, free market would have the world drowning in its own waste before corrective intelligent, market management solutions were adopted.

OK, don't worry about China. Get your own house in order. Guess why a security barricade is still in place around the Capitol, the very seat of "democracy"...

Can't handle the "change in topic" (when debating points are related: "freedom"/free markets/entrenched poverty). Guess what...."It's the economy stupid"; and when 40% of Americans can't find $400 from savings in an emergency, and the life expectancy of the poor is actually decreasing in the US, social unrest will be the obvious result.

Are you confused? China is a one-party meritocracy, India is an adversarial, multi-party democracy.

Guess what...China must quadruple its GDP if it is to match US GDP per capita, so of course China's emissions are sky-rocketing. The fact remains: per capita emissions in the US are still double China's at present. So the US must also reduce its own emissions, if you think China's emissions are too great (which they are; that's why China has announced peak emissions by 2030).

Er...see above. I'm not desperate, but your inability to connect the dots is obvious; I'll repeat: "It's the economy, stupid". ...the neoliberal, free market economy that is..

Interestingly, the Syrian war IS related to climate change; a prolonged drought drove desperate farmers into cities causing social breakdown.

At least Biden is disgusted by Trump's selling arms to the Saudi's like the worst kind of drug pusher, resulting in the slaughter of Yemeni children. Your "freedom" ideology (national or individual) makes me puke.

And where the very seat of democracy was stormed, and now permanently barricaded ......BECAUSE of your blind ideology on how you get to spend "your" money. And just today the FBI has elected domestic terrorism as the main threat to the "lucky" US democracy.

Aren't you lucky to live in such a country...with an anachronistic 2nd amendment which should have been repealed when the US achieved its own military forces capable of defending the nation. The only possible reason today for the 2nd amendment is a delusional attempt by Conservatives to enforce their own ideology onto the rest of the nation.

Tell that to Ashli Abbott..wait.... she's dead.

Er...Biden (he's president, remember...) agrees with my stance more than with you; though he too is constrained by obsolete free market ideology. [It's a pity the science hasn't been able to state beyond doubt we have only a decade or two remaining, in which to eliminate all CO2 emissions; in which case, the free market would HAVE to be ditched.... as a matter of survival of life on the planet].

No. Because median wages growth for workers has remained flat for decades (post Reagan).

That is THE topic, ie the economy, (and the stimulus package), and how peoples'contribution to the economy is valued, and why this method of evaluation by the profit driven private sector free market results in unemploymnet and poverty, leading to growing hyper-partisanship such that the Capitol itself is now surrounded by a barricade;

(quick google)

"The email details plans to begin "reposition[ing] the inner perimeter fencing around Capitol Square" over the course of this week, according to a portion of the email tweeted by NBC 4 reporter Scott MacFarlane on Monday. "The new positioning will move the fence closer to the Capitol building and will provide access to the avenues and some of the sidewalks," the email says."

In short, once again: "It' the economy, stupid" ...just to connect the dots for you.

Increasing self-awareness (of ideological blindness) is painful, hence your reaction.

People almost achieved a giant step for mankind in 1946, but blind instinct still won the day and forced the veto onto the UNSC (against the wishes of the majority) .....hence the task of delegitimizing war - again, "It's the economy, stupid" (ie, why nations make war) - is still to be achieved. hence the delusional "sovereignty of the individual/nation" ideology is still responsible for the age-old, ongoing murder of children in war.

Painful to consider, I know. Such is your much-vaunted "freedom".

 

"*******n that free market and democratic process. They took those private dollars, and didn't invest in something "I" find important. We need to take away private-bank-funded free market systems because I didn't get my way and other people disagreed with me"

^^ that's how you sound

People are going to engage in social unrest because they live above their means, don't prioritize saving, and don't make decisions to increase their own wealth?

Bring. it.

Was the graph I previously posted unclear? The US has reduced emissions for decades and China's CO2 emissions currently match the United States and are skyrocketing.

Maybe that's because the dots only exist in your head, but you think so highly of your opinion you're unable to see that?

The only people that believe that are the losers who have spent a life time wasting their ability to accumulate wealth.

News flash. The 2nd amendment wasn't included to protect us from outside invaders, it was to protect us from people with ideologies such as yours.

And with that, Im done arguing with you. You have so radical extreme left perspectives that, to be quite honest, are so far removed from reality there is no chance at a logical discussion. You want to mandate reproductive rights, get rid of free markets, outlaw guns... blah blah blah.

I'm going to go ahead and hang on to my guns, continue to work to feed my family and increase my wealth, and might even pop out a couple more babies. Not sure yet.

 

That's the problem, it's not democratic, because the unemployed don't get a say.

Because 'private-bank-funded free market systems' by definition benefit those who can successfully compete in private sector "invisible hand" (blind) free markets; but society is more than a private sector market. Public profit versus private profit. That's why the US still doesn't have a high-speed rail network...

The first two.... probably, aided and abetted by the junk consumer and advertising industries of greedy capitalists who know nothing and care less about community values...

The third: you need a secure job before you can begin to increase your own wealth. Duh.

Irrelevant. BOTH China and the US must decrease emissions, even while per capita Chinese emission are still only half that of US per capita emissions. So China as a developing country is still entitled to increase its emissions, at least until China's per capita emissions reach US per capita levels. (But there is a good chance China - not constrained by the free market - will be able to achieve its goals without reaching reaching US per capita emissions levels)

No, it's really simple. "Sovereignty of the individual" ideology is a delusion, in a world with more than one individual.

There you go, blaming the victims of an evil system that only sees value in the ability to compete in private sector markets.

Wrong.... "being necessary to the security of a free state"...... a 'state' requires government which is instituted "to promote the common welfare" of the individuals making up the state.

And all the states decided to unite "to promote the common welfare"...

Smart move. Your ideology is built on a delusion (of individual sovereignty), and its strength is derived from survival of the organism instincts honed by nature over eons, in a predatory world.

1. reproductive rights? I haven't said anything about that. Women have to bear children regardless of their circumstances, what else do you want to know?

2. Public sector oversight of free markets is not equivalent to "get rid of free markets".

3. Outlaw guns? Actually a trustworthy police force in a functional economy without the criminality associated with poverty and unemployment would be the only members of the community who would NEED guns. (Sporting clubs can keep guns locked up on premises)

In short I want to manage nature to achieve sustainable prosperity for all, well within the creative capacity of human beings, despite their competitive self-interested instincts ...which will destroy life on this planet if left unchecked in free markets alone.

Good for you.

 

Wow. If I am understanding you.

Capitalism is bad. Money is bad. People only should have to work as hard as they want, but should be guaranteed a job. People that elect not to participate are victims. People that did participate and gained wealth owe it to those that didn't, have a responsibility to cure "Environmental Armageddon" and they are to blame for the decay of the planet. We, along with the other first world countries, have a responsibility to stop capitalism and consumerism to prevent fossil fuel industrialization of third world countries...


Look. In all respect. I do get where you're coming from. The problem is a couple of things.

1. People are lazy. They must be incentivized to work. That's just a fact of human nature.

2. People will not accept sitting on their ass not advancing themselves and society through development and innovation. All of which are currently highly dependent on fossil fuel principals.

3. Barter and Trade is the most fundamental system of exchange of goods and services and has been in play since men lived in caves. Without a system to exchange goods and services, there is no longer really a point of living in society. Capitalism the system that most closely mimics barter and trade.

Without major overhauls to human nature, which would require complete authoritarian control, I don't see how your desire to fix global climate change and manage finite resources is achievable.

You have talked a lot about why it needs to be done, and the inherent benefit to humans, the planet, etc. What you haven't talked about is how you GET THERE. And that's the major problem.

Most of your positions hare HUGELY lofty, that only work if you fix all of societal ills, "like nobody needs guns if everybody had money and nobody was a criminal". I could debate that at it's merit, but just the concept is so far out there, in my opinion unachievable, driving political agenda off of fairy tail perquisites isn't really good for much. Further, it is common place for money to be the cure to societal ills, we hear it time and time again, but ironically at the same time, it is money that is blamed for societal ills especially when concentrated. The fact is, money doesn't fix everything. Somethings, yes. Everything no.

 

Firstly, your rhetoric includes much exaggeration.

Capitalism - based on the desire for personal monetary gain, is a powerful motivator of innovation, but a poor allocator of goods and services. This is why public sector intervention into private sector free markets is necessary, to achieve "the common welfare" and community well-being - so obviously lacking in the US, as inequality soars amid entrenched poverty. A minimum socially acceptable reward for participation is obviously desirable and achievable, in our modern highly productive economies.

This reality is currently reaching into global geopolitics, as China's mixed public/private economy is rapidly overtaking the US's private-only system (with money creation not permitted in the US Fed, in contrast to money creation based in the PBofC).

The American Dream Is Alive and Well—in China | WEB OF DEBT BLOG (ellenbrown.com)

In talks with China (in Alaska) , the US side has been forced to admit its own shortcomings which amount to human rights abuses manifested in systemic poverty and high incarceration rates of disadvantaged groups.

Whereas China's "reeducation camps" in Xinjiang are confronting - head on - the terrorist proclivities of a previously backward, poverty-stricken fundamentalist, Islamic culture in Xinjiang....similar to that of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

True. They are also greedy, self-interested and competitive by nature.

So the question is: how to govern such a beast, to achieve universal sustainable prosperity....while noting that the planet's sustainable ecological limits have already been exceeded

Notice in 1. you referred to "people" in the sense of all people, (presumably except those fortunate enough to be engaged in truly exciting and self-fulfilling work).

But in 2. you contradict yourself. Indeed people don't accept "sitting on their ass", unless they are so demoralized by the system in which they are unable to find employment. (hence the need for a JG).

Addressed above. China already knows this ..but China also knows everyone has something to contribute; and by means of "socialist" government which recognizes a Right and a Responsibility to contribute, can best eliminate systemic poverty. This is why China is much more successful in eradicating poverty than the private free-market system alone.

We are at a remarkable juncture in history in which the two largest economies will have to co-operate to deal with climate change. No "overhaul of human nature is required", only a better system of governance, as already stated above. Will Biden be forced to fund US transition to green - given free markets - via higher taxes? China can fund it with PBofC money printing (if the necessary resources are available...and this is where global co-operation is required to save the planet (if indeed AGW CO2 is real).

China appears to be capable of reaching the goal , and guess what: the Chinese people as a whole are at least as happy (and it seems much happier) with their government, than the - divided - US people are with theirs.

Exactly, which gets us back to my point about the need to acknowledge - via different methods of valuation to that determined in private sector markets alone - the difference between public good and private profit.

 

Many Americans are taking their Stim Check to the gun store:

​

 

Many Northern Nevadans are taking their Stim Check to the Moonlite:

 

But of course many more Americans are staving off poverty and homelessness.. and thereby stimulating the economy.

​

 

Is this a joke?

They support getting a check, they have no clue what's in this bill. Saying they support this bill is incredibly dishonest (and that's being nice).

Republicans in the senate know the majority of the bill is garbage, that's why they voted against it.

 

Yet Republicans voted for a tax cut for the super rich when they didn't need it and sent deficits careening.

They vote against everything dems propose, and their not voting for it is proof of nothing, especially given what they do vote for.

 

You had no response to anything I said, just a whataboutism that's nothing more than a fake talking point.

Clearly you can't defend your original point. Time for you to move on.

 

Is there anything sexier than a great weapon with a hot woman attached to it? NOOOO!!!

 

Clearly you can't refute my rebuttal, time to move on.

 

What rebuttal? You didn't even address my post at all.

A whataboutism is not a rebuttal. It's a desperate deflection proving how indefensible your original 'point' was.