Where my world view diverges from most

I guess I said we were created. Rocks were created. Earth was created. The universe was created.

I think you want to discuss abiogenesis and not evolution. I see in my own children evidence supporting evolution. What is the big deal about evolution?

The nut to crack is found in a great book in my library, Let me show you.

 

Sure. Remember that I have no problem wiht that.

However, have you investigated god enough to know that scinece is wrong about what is carefuly observed and recorded during studies of how this universe works?

For example, have you studied god enough to know that He absolutely dd not use the big bang to create this universe, or that he absolutely did not use evolution to populate this planet with life?

The issues show up when spiriuality is used to counter science in the realm of science and when science is used to counter spirituality in the realm of the supernatural. Neither of those can possibly work.

 

I do or rather I have spent a lot of time in my past investigating the elements of creation. I concluded upon much study that the universe did not self create. A powerful force created. I simply admit that was GOD.

Cradle of Life, a great book for anybody's library was illuminating as to abiogenesis. I do not believe GOD counters science. I do not believe Science counters GOD.

 

The big bang was sufficient to create air and dirt.

I don't believe we really even know what "nothing" means. The Abrahamic faiths have a god that existed before this universe. Are you sure there was NOTHING then? In our own universe, we know that space is not nothing.

There are questions that humans just can't answer.

Evolution grew complexity by a process that included random changes and a selection process that eliminated the change that wasn't good enough. This certainly is the opposite of entropy, but energy was available for this. Our universe is full of examples of increasing and decreasing energy.

So, the "nothing X nobody" thing is not what anyone believes. You shouldn't accuse people of that.

 

You stated very clearly in this post that the answer is that "God did it".

And, you suggested that the only other possible answer is that this universe did whatevery you mean by "self create" - which is certainly not what any cosmological scientist would propose.

So far, you really are choosing to use religion to attack science when discussing an issue that is in the realm of science - observation, of physical phenomena, testing, etc.

I know it's a tough point. Christianity doesn't have any answer OTHER than "god did it". And, that is true REGARDLESS of observation of physical phenomena.

How could Christianity POSSIBLY have any answer concerning ANY physical phenomena other than "God did it"? Religion just doesn't have the tools to come up with any other answer to any question. Well, I guess religion also has the answer that "satan did it", but ...

 

Frankly and this is not to pick at a poster, but when you went off on religion you totally changed the subject.

Think about evolution for example. Why is there evolution at all? Do you notice Gold evolving into other elements?

While humans can't know all the answers to everything at any point in time, the underlying thesis that the universe is not self creating forever is one to paw at. I will assemble a brief list of things that forced me to conclude that GOD is behind all creation.

1. Abiogenesis study including in the book Cradle of Life by J William Schopf
2. Reading a myriad books devoted to evolution
3. Ardent discussion over many years with a plethora of posters to hash out the details

A problem is that there is little scientific literature devoted to either the Big Bang nor what was around prior.

I liken my study to what Mozart did when he originated music. He may not have been able to put into our more normal minds how he managed to do it, but we know he did.

 

Clearly you imputed things to me that simply are fiction. I did not make use of Religion in any fashion.

I do not attack science. NEVER

I did not bring up Christianity. Any such comments are if others do, I may or may not choose to discuss that part. This has nothing to do with GOD in my opinion since you and I see GOD in two totally different prisms.

 

Self Create is the concept that the Universe was always in existence. But Science has postulated after that the concept of BIG Bang yet does not explain the forces behind that. It simply leaves that off.

 

You're judgeing science negatively, because there are specific questions for which scinece has no answer.

It's saying that we can determine what god did by detecting whether science claims to have an answer!! That is, if science doesn't know, then God HAD to have done it.

Given human fallibility and incapability in observing anything outside our universe, that's totally nonsensical.

 

Nobody believes this universe was always in existence.

Of course, it COULD be that the "environment" that produced the big bang was eternal. We have no significant evidence of that environment, though.

Yes. Science doesn't know everything!! Surely human limitations are not some shocking new consideration.

And, those limitations aren't evidence of a supernatural being. We can do lack of omniscience all on our own!

 

Well, you state that scinece is absolutely wrong - including on issues of scince.

I guess it's great that you don't see that as an attack.

 

I know you think that. You restating it doesn't tell me anything new or progress our discussion the matter. I was asking you why you think that can't happen, in particular in the context of me having provided an example in which that happens.

 

Thanks for the daily joke.

https://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/index.html

 

Do you know what dirt is? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dirt

 

Scripture, taken literally, competes with Satan in terms of evil. But if we assume that there are any deceptive spiritual beings at all (and, in fact, the Bible describes God as one), then revelation can't be trusted at all, whether it is put to paper/papyrus or not.

Your "Satan can masquerade as an angel of light" argument is just as good of a reason to reject Scripture.

 

Why do you assume that "nothing" is even a possibility? How can nothingness even exist? By existing it would not longer be nothingness. Nothingness, by definition it seems, can't exist.

 

I came from my parents, not nothing.

Time began at the big bang. There was no before.

 

But God made him knowing what he would choose to do to millions of people. Would you made a new medication knowing that people would misuse it and kill millions of people?

 

Some people claim that NDEs are real experiences with the after-life. The afterlife is supernatural because it is outside our natural world. If your mother and father are outside the natural world, then they are supernatural.

 

I realize how Democrats who show a huge affinity with Atheists talk, but the people who have had NDE can be found in the upper echelons to the baddest ass Atheists who convert. Don't you think given they had been Atheists they would go for your comments? Why then to they suddenly go to religion?

 

Now you tell me you believe in GOD? And that GOD wastes time making evil people?

 

Your example proves nothing to me. I don't know how to state it more clearly than to say that chance is not a creative force.
Chance mutations cannot accumulate into ever increasing functional complexity no matter how much chance you have.

 

What God did was create evil by creating people he knew would perpetrate evil. In a sense God's other personality is Satan. We are discovering many of the genetic and neurological factors that lead to our desires and temptations. God was the one who created the brain. He also created those who do evil. He has also committed or commanded genocide multiple times, had children murdered, commanded generational punishment, and commanded a strict share-law like society, among many other things. God is the creator of both good and evil. God is both good and evil. Maybe we really can't have the highest good without some evil.

 

And there are many religious people who have "converted" to atheism so it goes both ways. NDEs are a powerful emotional hallucination that can shake people. People are primarily emotional creatures not logical, and that goes for atheists too. I think we should look at NDEs and see if there is any actual evidence they are supernatural rather just all happening inside the brain when is it undergoing extreme trauma.

 

It is generally accepted that rational people know the difference between good and bad acts that affect humanity. So who is evil, the one person who incites the mob or the eager willing twits who make up the mob? A single person may kill a few people by his own hand but the mob can kill tens of millions. Why isn't it that no one in the mob will ever kill the leader instead of the innocent child? Guys like Hitler didn't kill anyone, it was the mob that did the killing and are the truly evil people. They knew good from evil but decided to do evil.

So if there is a God who cares about such things maybe he does such tests to determine who the good and evil people are. History shows that most people are evil.