Why did Japan bomb Pearl Harbor?

If we're going to go to war, at least get something out of it. We invade Iraq, remove the dictator, and China gets the oil contracts. Blood, sweat and treasure sacrificed for very little in return.

We're hated anyway, might as well get some bounty for our troubles.

 

What?

I am sorry, are you actually trying to say we should have invaded Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Abu Dhabi, Iraq, and Iran over this? Are you absolutely insane, or did you want to start World War III?

And sorry, the reason we did not should be obvious. Because if we had even tried, the Soviet Union (who was their backer) would have retaliated against us, and odds are that the world would have ended up going up in a nuclear fireball.

It had nothing to do with the oil companies or anything else.

 

I knew it was something along those lines. Thanks.

 

No problem. During that time our official stance is that we were neutral towards the Vichy French, but at the same time we gave considerable aid to a man known as Nguyễn Sinh Cung. The US through the OSS gave aid and training to Nguyen and his Viet Minh rebels, first against the Vichy French, then later against the Japanese.

Of course, Nguyen is more well known under his nom de guerre, Ho Chi Minh.

 

The beauty of booty. But it's not predatory; all Muslims are our natural enemies. The only way to defeat them is to seize their oil, which they never did anything to deserve anyway.

 

Yeah, and after the war we learned a lesson that the Europeans learnt after World War 1. When you give a bunch of people you suppress weapons and knowledge on how to use them effectively, they're going to use them to get back at you.

 

Actually, I think the entire problem there was that for some reason the Truman administration supported France trying to regain their former colonies instead of insisting that instead they plan on a staged path towards independence (as we did in the Philippines).

The outcome from that was that Uncle Ho felt that we had stabbed him in the back, he was imprisoned in China and freed by Mao, and became even more radicalized. So when he returned it was at the head of an Army that destroyed French rule in Indochina.

If I could smack President Truman in the face for any one thing, that would be it. Indochina, Africa, France's attempt to regain their colonies ended up killing millions and caused wars to continue for decades to come. I think the world would be a lot better off if they had realized that their Colonial Empire was dead, and acted as an "Elder Statesman Nation and Big Brother" to giving them independence instead of trying to keep them together by force.

But that is neither here nor there. All to often people tend to look at a war itself, or some image they have created of that war based upon their own beliefs and preconceptions. They do not look at the actual causes. And it is apparent that this thread in many cases is little more then that, with people claiming that an embargo is an act of war, and the like.

 

There's no doubt about that, but it wouldn't have happened in the first place, if the US didn't train the Vietnamese in the first place how to fight the Japanese. The battle of Dien Ben Phu illustrates that perfectly. Being able to trap the French their and demoralize them required military training. The French lost the will to fight, because they were their enemy was trained, and experienced.

 

The thing that always struck me is that the US knew ahead of time that Pearl Harbor would be a likely target, and the Japanese must have assumed that we would know that so why didn't they bomb Oregon or better yet New York. No one would have seen that coming.

 

Actually, US predictions were that the Philippines would come under attack, and some of the other islands like Guam. Pearl Harbor was not considered a serious candidate because of the shallowness of the harbor, and that an attack would largely be meaningless without an invasion and Hawaii was to far from Japan to make that reasonable.

Oregon really had nothing to attack (although they did indeed make attacks on Oregon). And there was no way they could have attacked New York.

 

Then why didn't Americans fight the Chickenhawks and Liberals after Vietnam, or now after Iraq and Afghanistan? The answer is that the air-conditioned ethics of the Geneva Convention demoralizes the troops and takes the fight out of them forever. That was the real purpose of the Geneva Convention, to avoid the revolutions by veterans after World War I.

 

Wow, then they were freaking amazing!

You are aware that the Geneva Conventions date back to 1864, are you not? The only Convention signed between the World Wars was one on the treatment of POWs. And I have absolutely no idea what that would have to do with what you are talking about.

 

That's why FDR took the aircraft carriers out of Pearl Harbor.

 

Japan was expanding in east Asia eyeing the possessions of Britain and France, so Germany and Italy made natural European partners.
Attacking Pearl Harbor was based on the mistaken notion that the US Navy could be crippled and unable to carry on any operations for years, and that the US would sue for peace, and resume oil and scrap metal shipments.

If the Japanese had targeted the tank farm above Pearl Harbor, the damage would have been far deeper, the US fought the war in the Pacific with oil stockpiled in that tank farm, destroying that oil would have seriously curtailed the ability of the navy to operate in the Pacific, much more so than the limited damage the fleet actually suffered in the attack. And this would have denied FDR the bloody shirt to wave at Congress.
It might have been difficult to turn the nation to favor war if there had been no casualties, no pictures of burning, sinking ships, just pictures of a large column of black smoke.

 

The Japanese did bomb Oregon. -> http://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/entry/view/balloon_bombs/
>"The existence and purpose of the Balloon Bombs were kept secret from the American public for security reasons until a tragic accident forced a change in policy."< -> http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigation/japenese-balloon-bomb/

The Japanese also conducted submarine warfare off the CONUS west coast shelling numerous targets and sinking American ships just a few miles off shore.
>"California was witness to some of the most traumatic events that happened during the war in the then 48 states. When Pearl Harbor was bombed on Dec. 7, 1941 California was racked from north to south with near panic conditions because tens of thousands of its citizens expected similar attacks, possibly by the same naval force that attacked Hawaii, at any time on California cities.

Within days of the attack on Hawaii, Japanese submarines were attacking merchant ships off California's coast reinforcing those fears..."< -> http://www.militarymuseum.org/HistoryWWII.html


But the most famous battle fought on America's west coast during WW ll was the Battle of Los Angeles. Even the Hollywood Left made a movie about this battle.

>"During the night of 24/25 February 1942, unidentified objects caused a succession of alerts in southern California. On the 24th, a warning issued by naval intelligence indicated that an attack could be expected within the next ten hours. That evening a large number of flares and blinking lights were reported from the vicinity of defense plants. An alert called at 1918 [7:18 p.m., Pacific time] was lifted at 2223, and the tension temporarily relaxed. But early in the morning of the 25th renewed activity began. Radars picked up an unidentified target 120 miles west of Los Angeles. Antiaircraft batteries were alerted at 0215 and were put on Green Alert&#8212;ready to fire&#8212;a few minutes later. The AAF kept its pursuit planes on the ground, preferring to await indications of the scale and direction of any attack before committing its limited fighter force. Radars tracked the approaching target to within a few miles of the coast, and at 0221 the regional controller ordered a blackout. Thereafter the information center was flooded with reports of &#8220;enemy planes, &#8221; even though the mysterious object tracked in from sea seems to have vanished. At 0243, planes were reported near Long Beach, and a few minutes later a coast artillery colonel spotted &#8220;about 25 planes at 12,000 feet&#8221; over Los Angeles. At 0306 a balloon carrying a red flare was seen over Santa Monica and four batteries of anti-aircraft artillery opened fire, whereupon &#8220;the air over Los Angeles erupted like a volcano.&#8221; From this point on reports were hopelessly at variance..."< -> http://www.militarymuseum.org/BattleofLA.html

Liberals version of the Battle of L.A.
[video=youtube_share;6_KOLqpo7z 8]http://youtu.be/6_KOLqpo7z8[/video]

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The Japanese did bomb Oregon. -> http://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/entry/view/balloon_bombs/
>"The existence and purpose of the Balloon Bombs were kept secret from the American public for security reasons until a tragic accident forced a change in policy."< -> http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigation/japenese-balloon-bomb/

The Japanese also conducted submarine warfare off the CONUS west coast shelling numerous targets and sinking American ships just a few miles off shore.
>"California was witness to some of the most traumatic events that happened during the war in the then 48 states. When Pearl Harbor was bombed on Dec. 7, 1941 California was racked from north to south with near panic conditions because tens of thousands of its citizens expected similar attacks, possibly by the same naval force that attacked Hawaii, at any time on California cities.

Within days of the attack on Hawaii, Japanese submarines were attacking merchant ships off California's coast reinforcing those fears..."< -> http://www.militarymuseum.org/HistoryWWII.html


But the most famous battle fought on America's west coast during WW ll was the Battle of Los Angeles. Even the Hollywood Left made a movie about this battle.

>"During the night of 24/25 February 1942, unidentified objects caused a succession of alerts in southern California. On the 24th, a warning issued by naval intelligence indicated that an attack could be expected within the next ten hours. That evening a large number of flares and blinking lights were reported from the vicinity of defense plants. An alert called at 1918 [7:18 p.m., Pacific time] was lifted at 2223, and the tension temporarily relaxed. But early in the morning of the 25th renewed activity began. Radars picked up an unidentified target 120 miles west of Los Angeles. Antiaircraft batteries were alerted at 0215 and were put on Green Alert—ready to fire—a few minutes later. The AAF kept its pursuit planes on the ground, preferring to await indications of the scale and direction of any attack before committing its limited fighter force. Radars tracked the approaching target to within a few miles of the coast, and at 0221 the regional controller ordered a blackout. Thereafter the information center was flooded with reports of “enemy planes, ” even though the mysterious object tracked in from sea seems to have vanished. At 0243, planes were reported near Long Beach, and a few minutes later a coast artillery colonel spotted “about 25 planes at 12,000 feet” over Los Angeles. At 0306 a balloon carrying a red flare was seen over Santa Monica and four batteries of anti-aircraft artillery opened fire, whereupon “the air over Los Angeles erupted like a volcano.” From this point on reports were hopelessly at variance..."< -> http://www.militarymuseum.org/BattleofLA.html

Liberals version of the Battle of L.A.
[video=youtube_share;6_KOLqpo7z8]http://youtu.be/6_KOLqpo7z8[/video]

 

FDR didn't order the carriers out of Pearl Harbor. The Pacific Fleet was under the command of Admiral Kimmel, he ordered the carriers to ferry Marine Corps aircraft to Wake and Midway.
FDR never micromanged the U.S. military.

>" On 7 December 1941, the three Pacific Fleet aircraft carriers were USS Enterprise (CV-6), USS Lexington (CV-2), and USS Saratoga (CV-3).

Enterprise: On 28 November 1941, Admiral Husband E. Kimmel sent TF-8, consisting of Enterprise, the heavy cruisers Northampton (CA-26), Chester (CA-27), and Salt Lake City (CA-24) and nine destroyers under Vice Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., to ferry 12 Grumman F4F-3 Wildcats of Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 211 to Wake Island. Upon completion of the mission on 4 December, TF-8 set course to return to Pearl Harbor. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found TF-8 about 215 miles west of Oahu.

Lexington: On 5 December 1941, TF-12, formed around Lexington, under the command of Rear Admiral John H. Newton, sailed from Pearl to ferry 18 Vought SB2U-3 Vindicators of Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 231 to Midway Island. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found Lexington, heavy cruisers Chicago (CA-29), Portland (CA-33), and Astoria (CA-34), and five destroyers about 500 miles southeast of Midway. The outbreak of hostilities resulted in cancellation of the mission and VMSB-231 was retained on board [they would ultimately fly to Midway from Hickam Field on 21 December].

Saratoga: The Saratoga, having recently completed an overhaul at the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Bremerton, Washington, reached NAS San Diego [North Island] late in the forenoon watch on 7 December. She was to embark her air group, as well as Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 221 and a cargo of miscellaneous airplanes to ferry to Pearl Harbor.

Yorktown (CV-5), Ranger (CV-4) and Wasp (CV-7), along with the aircraft escort vessel Long Island (AVG-1), were in the Atlantic Fleet; Hornet (CV-, commissioned in late October 1941, had yet to carry out her shakedown. Yorktown would be the first Atlantic Fleet carrier to be transferred to the Pacific, sailing on 16 December 1941. "<

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq66-9.htm

If the Japanese would have delayed their attack on Pearl Harbor by 24 hours or 48 hours the carrier USS Enterprise would have been in port at Pearl Harbor.

 

And do you know how many aircraft carriers were stationed in Pearl Harbor?

I can answer that for you: three. The USS Enterprise, the USS Lexington, and the USS Saratoga.

And where were those ships on 7 December?

Well, the USS Saratoga was just entering San Diego harbor. You see, she had been in Bremerton Washington since May for a 6 month refit and was finishing her sea trials prior to returning to duty. She was in San Diego to pick up her air wing and conduct the final stage of her shakedown cruise prior to returning to full duty.

So that means that in order to have planned this, FDR would have had to have known about this before the attack was even planned by the Japanese! Pretty amazing if you ask me.

And where was the USS Enterprise? Well, it was on it's way back from a mission to ferry additional aircraft to Wake Island.

And the USS Lexington? Why, it was on it's way to Midway Island, with another shipment of aircraft.

One thing I love about this conspiracy theory, is that it is so absolutely lacking in any kind of real understanding of what the ships were doing at the time. Do people really think that the ships just spend all their time hanging out in the harbor? No, they go out and do things. Especially aircraft carriers, which are the perfect way to bring additional aircraft to remote islands. Our carriers had been doing these missions for most of 1941, including missions to Hawaii, the Philippines, and Samoa in addition to Wake and Midway.

 

Did not see that you had already answered this post. This is the thing I love most about conspiracy theories. They really only work if the little unreality bubble that exists around them is real. "FDR ordered the carriers out of Pearl Harbor!" Well, no, not really. One had been out of commission for months prior to the attack, the other 2 were performing their duties and preparing other islands for attack be providing additional aircraft and supplies.

But for some reason the CTs seem to believe they were just sailing in circles somewhere waiting out the attack.

 

What are you talking about?

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So you're telling me, FDR took ships out, that haven't proven their superiority in a time when battleships were considered to be the dominant force in naval warfare, because he knew they would be effective? And that he decided to fight Japan, despite the fact that he was focusing on Germany?

 

So they could get the US to sue for peace on their terms and gain control of SE Asia and the resources there and consolidate China and East Asia without fear of the Russians.

 

That lasted only six months. Kido Butai was stopped in the Coral Sea, and smashed at Midway. The Japanese would win exactly two more naval battles in the Pacific war.

As I recall, there were so many volunteers, they couldn't handle it. People were told, "Just wait until your draft number comes up."

 

>"The voluntary recruiting system, so successful in filling Marine manpower needs during the first year of the War, had to be abandoned in favor of the draft as hostilities entered their second year. On 5 December 1942, President Roosevelt issued an executive order stopping voluntary enlistments for all men between the ages of 17 and 36. He did so because the voluntary system had created serious overall manpower problems, resulting in the enlistment in the Armed Services of men essential to industry, and making impossible an equitable distribution between the services of the higher quality men.37

The Marine Corps had hoped to continue the voluntary system, but at least six months before the executive order of 5 December was issued, Headquarters realized that the Marine Corps would be put under selective service sooner or later. Work was begun to create a system which would permit draftees who desired to serve in the Marine Corps to do so. For this purpose, a Selective Service Liaison Section was established at Headquarters. Its members were assigned to Selective Service headquarters and to Selective Service agencies in all the states.38

On 1 February 1943, the Marine Corps began personnel procurement under a procedures of Selective Service. Every month, the Marine Corps submitted a manpower request to the Secretary of the Navy, who in turn presented a consolidated figure representing the needs of the Navy and Coast Guard, as well as of the Marines, to the Director of Selective Service. At Selective Service Headquarters, a total call was made up. Quotas were then issued to the states, where they were divided among the local boards.39

The men called up reported to Armed Forces Induction Stations, manned by personnel of all services. For the guidance of induction station staffs in distributing personnel between the military and naval services, Selective Service Headquarters announced the ratio each month between the Army and Navy quotas. Each Induction Station allotted inductees on the basis of this ratio. To assure equitable distribution of manpower by quality, categories were set up according to age, education, and occupational skill. The quotas for the Army and Navy were to be made up of proportionate numbers from all these categories. The Navy quota at each Induction Station was then broken down into Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard components, again by use of a ratio. Selectees could pick their branch of service provided vacancies existed in the quota of the service of their choice.40
At this point, the Marine Corps liaison officers entered the picture. Through their influence with state and local selective service officials, they were able to postpone the induction of draftees who wanted to serve with the Marine Corps until a vacancy in the quota occurred. Through this process, the Marine Corps was able to procure individuals of high caliber who were anxious to serve in its ranks.

The induction and processing of Marine inductees were the duties of the Recruiting Service and were performed as they had been for volunteers. At first, all inductees were enrolled as Selective Service, but after 25 February 1943 the Recruiting Service was authorized to discharge inductees to permit then to enlist in the regular or Reserve Marine Corps. As some stigma came to be attached to selective service inductees, unjustified of course, this pseudo-voluntary procedure became very popular. Of a total of 224,323 inductees, fewer than 70,000 chose to remain in inductee status.

On 11 February 1943, the Marine Corps received its first recruits through the Selective Service. Results during this first month were disappointing, as only 9,349 men of a quota of 13,400 were actually delivered to the Marine Corps. It was hoped that performance would improve in subsequent months, but this was not the case. Not until June, 1944, did Selective Service meet the monthly quota established for the Marine Corps. In August, the number of inductees delivered once again fell below the quota, and, with the exception of July 1944, Selective Service never again met the quota it had agreed upon for the Marine Corps.41

The Marine Corps was able to avert a serious manpower shortage only because voluntary enlistment by 17-year-olds was still permitted, a practice which was begun in February 1943, the month of the first Marine draft call. The Commandant directed the heads of Recruiting Divisions to build up a pool of men in this age group by enlisting them in the Reserve and placing them on inactive duty subject to call. During the remaining months of the War, the pool was drawn upon repeatedly. Of the 275,985 men who entered the Marine Corps between 1 February 1943 and 31 July 1945, 58,927 were 17-year-old volunteers... "<
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/Admin-Hist/USN-Admin/USN-Admin-14.html

 

13 ships under a 2-star Admiral to escort 12 planes for the Marine Corps? Were those planes piloted by 3-star Generals? That just confirms my suspicions. The real mission of all these boats was to shadow the Japanese invasion fleet heading towards Southeast Asia and provoke an attack.

 

A 2 Star Admiral in Hawaii is like a Congressional Paige. They are literally everywhere, and often are working as aides to aides, but I will get back to that later.

And think about it, will you? Think about these points seriously for a moment:

1. How else are you going to get the aircraft and pilots there, take the planes apart and send them on freighters? With a possible war coming, are you crazy?

2. The carrier still needs to have her full complement of aircraft after dropping off the fighters at their destination. Do you think they should drop off more aircraft, and then be trying to sail back to Hawaii with a reduced fighter capacity?

3. How much "extra room" do you think there is on a carrier? 12 fighters is an air wing, and is not a minimal as you try to make it out to be.

OK, so does that explain a bit more of what was going on?

And once again, about that 2 star admiral. That is pretty typical, with 2 star admirals in charge of fleets. Generally the overall commander is at least 2 ranks higher then their subordinates. This is why young Lieutenants lead Platoons, Captains lead Companies, Lieutenant Colonels lead Battalions, and Brigadier General leads Brigades.

And finally, here is the real reason.

Do you know what a "One Star Admiral" was called at the beginning of WWII?

Yea, yea, our squids here know that is a trick question. There were no "One Star Admirals" at the time. The rank of Commodore was at this point ceremonial, it was not a real rank. So both 1 and 2 star Admirals were addressed as "Rear Admiral". And both wore the same rank, and were addressed the same way. It was not until the 1980's that the "Lower Half" and "Upper Half" was designated.

And John Henry was promoted to Flag Rank on 1 February 1941. And as such a junior "Two Star Admiral", he really was the equivalent of a "One Star". But as I stated, such a rank dis not exist.

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/N/e/Newton_John_H.htm

As I always say, research, research, research.

 

Ships!

Ships carry boats - Easy way to remember the distinction