Why do europeans vote for the left?

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Munqi, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. Munqi

    Munqi New Member

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    ...Are you saying that the demand by the unions to keep unproductive mines not only open, but actually increase their wages was something that had no effect?
     
  2. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There were no unproductive mines, just a totally unproductive government run for the benefit of the totally unproductive class, as you know.
     
  3. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    Dear Alexa,...

    You are not making any sense at all.

    It is one thing to be a xenophobe, and it is an entire different matter to be a concerned citizen.

    As Raymondo already pointed out -- the Left is trying to dismiss the facts because they are uncomfortable.

    I think you misunderstood completely. As if I would ever advocate different types of medical care based on people's ethnic background.

    I'm terribly taken aback by above segment of your hand.

    It is not acceptable that foreigners -- non-citizens -- from other countries (Albania, Morroco, Algeria, Senegal, Moldovia,...) come here without ever have payed a cent towards Social Security and then expect to receive the most advanced health care in the world that costs loads of money.

    Do I have any problem with asylum seekers getting an education? No.
    Do I have any problem with asylum seekers getting the most advanced healthcare? No.

    My problem is with "new Belgians" (the folks who received asylum or got naturalized) make their uncle, grandparents, parents, brothers and sisters to come here and then expect them to receive the most advanced healthcare imaginable that cost our society loads and loads of money. If the treatment is done, some of them go back home and some, on their turn, ask for papers to stay here "on medical grounds".

    These people only costs us money and will never contribute anything noteworthy to the general process of socio-economic progress of our society.

    And it surely isn't xenophobic to point that out...

    Again -- there is nothing wrong with solidarity. But our respecive countries can't be the charities of the entire world...
     
  4. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Belgium was the first European country to ban burkas and I think the first to discuss depriving ethnic citizens of their citizenship. It was as I said brought to my attention because of a poster on another forum who I liked and hence I was surprised to see him taking this approach. At the time I did significant research and it showed that this has become ingrained in the political system and media of Belgium, hence why I did a quick search and gave the link I did which sums up the situation I have previously studied

    http://rac.sagepub.com/content/53/1/28.abstract


    That is not what you said

    What you actually said was
    http://www.politicalforum.com/weste...do-europeans-vote-left-11.html#post1061035460

    I am in no doubt that if you were talking about people just coming to take advantage of your country for medical purposes you would have said so and what is more I bet you, like the UK have already taken care to make sure this situation does not happen. You instead made clear you were talking about 'new Belgium's' in other words immigrants. Hence I was correct that you wish to deprive people of cancer treatment due to their ethnicity. You may be trying to hide it now as I have stated it's obvious correlation to National Socialism in Germany in the 30's but it does not change what you wrote.



    Like I said if the people do not belong to Belgium I am sure you have found a way like the UK has to make them pay for their own treatment, make their country pay for their treatment or send them back home. We do it and we as yet are nowhere near as Nationalistic as Belgium has unfortunately become.

    When you want to refuse citizens or people who have been given residency cancer treatment, my criticism remains - 1930's Germany.
     
  5. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    Kilgram,...

    You don't understand, and I don't blame you at all my friend.

    Spain isn't Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, France, Austria or Luxembourg...

    Above mentioned countries are far from perfect, but in a socio-economic sense they are completely built-out differently than Spain, Portugal and Greece for example...

    Everyone pays taxes. From a 8 y.o. boy buying some sweets with his pocket money to a 15 y.o. buying her first make-up equipment...

    For me the problem has two angles: (1) a financial one and (2) about values & norms.

    The problem isn't "immigrants" as some of you think is what I'm saying. No.
    The problem is an increasing pool of free-loaders coming from non-advanced countries who lack the skills to be succesful and independent and who don't share our values and norms.

    The first example I gave about complete foreigners receiving the most advanced and ridiculously costly medical treatment for me.

    Then, I gave you an other example of two 20 year old asylum seekers from Georgia who have never contributed anything towards our society, receiving an expensive appartment in an expensive neighberhood. These people do not work -- their education back home would have been labeled a success if they could write and read. They don't speak Dutch. They don't speak French. They don't speak English. On top of their appartment they get access to our health care system and they receive a combined welfare payment of €1100/month. Plus child benefits of around €1000/year.

    I'm sad, Kilgram.

    I'm sad you don't see the problem(s).

    Next year, I'm sure the Governement is announcing an other round of budget austerity on the backs of the people who actually contribute something to society.
     
  6. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know Prof. Zemni -- I was a student of his. Yet I fail to see your evidence for your claim of Belgium being a pool of xenophobia...

    Anyways -- Belgium and the Belgian populace overwhelmingly supports the Burqa-ban. Even our Muslim population. So I don't see the problem really.

    False.

    I exactly said the same, you just mis-read.


    ...

    I'm terribly worried if I should take you seriously after that last sentence, Alexa...

    I've been a member of PF.com for many years now but I've never had to endure such an utter travesity. And from a fellow European no less! How shameful.


    ...

    I never, ever (!), have advocated such thing. I do, however, am saying is that we need to be truely selective in what sort of people we take in.

    I didn't tell the whole story because I found it uneccessary -- but since you are completely refusing to take anything what I'm saying serious I see no other choice than for me to point out the entire story.

    In Belgium we have something called "OCMW", or in English: "PCSW".

    The OCMW needs to help-out. No matter what. They can't refuse to help you.

    So, if a regularized Belgian has a brother, nephew or parent, or an extensive family of 50 persons, that has medical issues and they decide to "let him visit" they can go to the hospital here and they'll be helped out. And then the hospital sends their medical bills to the local OCMW, which pays them.

    BTW -- LMAO! Belgium, nationalistic? :laughing:
     
  7. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    then I guess you didn't look to what he said because he is saying it in the clip I gave. What stunned me when I did do some research on Belgium was the, as you put below the unanimity there was towards repressive measure towards Muslims. It was like one voice had taken over and no other voice was there. Every problem was somehow caused by the Muslims themselves, not lack of opportunities, education, decent housing and so on. I don't know if Belgium has perhaps never had immigrants but it doesn't seem to be aware that if you want to have integration you need to provide opportunity.

    The voice just wasn't there. Just blame it all on the Muslims. Take no responsibility for State policies. Easy but far right psychologically. Like I say the thing that absolutely stunned me was it was the only voice being spoken, never mind heard. That is the reason why in my first post I suggested you had not properly investigated the propaganda.

    I am aware of that. However as there were only a handful of people wearing the burka, the furore over the burka and the bringing in of the ban, suggests some other reason.


    Well I have only come across you twice, the other time you set up a thread to try and declare that multiculturalism had not worked because Muslims still circumcise their boys.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/1060876035-post1.html

    It appeared to me to be an Isamphobia set up. That and now you wanting to deny them cancer treatment is all I know of you. In both cases you appear to be saying I am not islamophobic but ........




    No, that is not what you said. You were complaining about the people who were already getting treatment - the people who your mother treats.

    If you have an abuse of your system then you need to tighten up your system but I take seriously the attitude which someone brings to bare on what they said. You said

    Now this is where I still have a problem. Of course people are going to want their relations to get the best health care they can and of course people are going to slip through the system if they are able. As I explained, in the UK their are strict rules now about who gets help. It never used to be that but in the modern world it apparently has become necessary. Now you lay the blame for people misusing your health service on new immigrants. It isn't their fault. It is your government if it allows everyone to come from everywhere to receive treatment.

    However if they are citizens, then still 1930's/ You are not being clear.

    Are you suggesting that in Belgium people can get free use of your medical facilities when they are not a citizen or do not have official residency. I would be surprised if this was the case. But if it is then you need to write to your MP. It is not the fault of anyone else, yet you are blaming it on accepted Asylum refugees and new citizens.
     
  8. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    ...

    I'm sorry to say that I think you are completely detached from reality.

    Opportunity is in abudance. If one grasps it or not, is up to the individual. Not to the state. We are still a liberal-democracy not a totalitarian regime.

    Our country is very committed to equality of opportunity, and I'd also like to point out that social mobility is far higher on the Continent than it is on the British Isles.

    Again -- I'm not really sure in which distant universe you exactly dwell,...

    Belgium, by the way, has a far different history when it comes to the extreme-right than other European countries. The extreme-right has never been so weak in decades than it is today, whilst the oppossite is true in the rest of Europe.

    Conservatism is roaring in Flanders though, the latest poll puts N-VA at 40% of the Flemish vote. These kind of numbers are unseen in more than a century... a sign on the wall I guess.

    The notion of "identity" is one of the biggest challenges for this century I believe, and many others with me feel the same.

    Most certainly.

    It is the acceptance of the fact that our respective societies are superior, not just different, than others.

    Nothing xenophobic about that, I believe.

    No, nothing islamophobic about it.

    Besides, the thread needs to be seen in the light that multi-culturalism is a failure in my perspective since it lacks any sense of self-criticism whatsoever.

    If it makes you feel uncomfortable that I have no difficulty in accepting the obvious, which is that our socities -- our values and our norms -- are superior to that of others, well than that is your problem.

    ...

    I was complaining about the free-loaders that come here from accross the world who are non-citizens. They come here through family, who are citizens.

    I think I've figured out why your posts annoy me so much: you keep on assuming loads of things about me and what I think, say or want to do. It has been a long time since I witnessed such posts with a complete lack of tolerance or unwillingness to understand the other person on the other hand of the keyboard.

    Please -- give me a quote in which I "blame" accepted asylum seekers and new-Belgians for this entire messed-up situation. You'll not find it. I'm blaming the Left for not wanting to change the situation, specifically I'm blaming the Walloon PS and CDH.

    However, on a subjective level I, ofcourse, am upset with the folks that bring their entire families over here because they think everything is for "free". Ofcourse everything is for "free" -- if you don't speak the language and thus, can't receive an education, or land a decent job and don't pay any taxes...

    And I'm not "suggesting" anything either, I'm just pointing out the situation on the ground.
     
  9. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    Sort of, but the Labour Party also massively increased the size of the state and spent a great deal of taxpayers money doing it, hence it (along with the Conservatives and Lib Dems) is a grotesque mixture of both the left and the right.

    I still can't understand why you are so concerned with British politics, but as you are and you're not shy about letting us know, why do you think the Conservatives are so keen to build on what the Labour Party did? And please, don't tell me you believe that they're being held back by their coalition with the Lib Dems!
     
  10. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    Yes how did we get from teetering on the edge of bankruptcy to where we are today, teetering on the edge of bankruptcy again only this time we already sold off everything of any value. How did we get so prosperous Cameron is laying off public sector workers left right and centre? Why do we need these "austerity measures" if we are so well off?

    I remember the winter of discontent, I remember raging inflation, I remember the politicians telling us our wages must be capped and I remember them same politicians, on both sides of the House, voting themselves the equivalent of a 25% pay rise on top of their annual rise by allowing themselves to claim expenses for their wives.

    Them's the criminals to blame.
     
  11. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    argue it piece by piece. Beginning with an unbacked up insult shows lack of argument

    and yet do you not claim that all your crime is committed by immigrants who you wish to deprive of their citizenship and deport. Is there not severe unemployment of Muslims in Belgium and do they not have extreme difficulty getting decent housing?

    (you being generalisation for current Belgium situation)

    social mobility is at Victorian levels in the UK - that however is not what we are discussing. We are discussing your desire to stop citizens receiving medical care because of their ethnicity. Your welfare-chauvinism.


    again, empty insults.

    well it must have been bad in the past because despite only having a handful of Muslims wearing burkas you went to the time and expense of banning them and have been discussing deporting citizens who are 'foreigners'

    Expand

    enlarge

    Indeed what you are describing is historically called 'white supremacism' and it definitely is xenophobic, only worse.

    There was. Your either blind or unconscious to it.

    That makes no sense, but I am not going off on a tangent here.

    You don't come over to me as being superior at all simply a WS.


    Provide statistics for this.


    yes, I am intolerant of people who wish to deny people medical treatment on ethnic grounds and who blatantly claim white nationalist views. It is called cultural racism. Mayne you are not a white Nationalist. Maybe I was wrong about that and maybe not, but you are a cultural racist.

    I provided the quote before my reply. I suggest you look.:arrow:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/weste...do-europeans-vote-left-14.html#post1061038189

    This is just Breivik talk. Just more cultural racism. If you invite people to become citizens it is your responsibility to make sure they are taught the language and offered decent schooling so that they can have hope of a good job. Once you provide this they will obviously be paying taxes.
     
  12. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but I think you have mistaken me for someone else, Alexa. And to be frank, I'm starting to have quite enough of your assumptions and obvious lies.

    However, the latest figures that I know of, say about 50% of Belgian prisons is filled with non-Belgians. The other 50% that are actually Belgian, well -- I have no knowledge of their ethnic background, and that doesn't really interest me that much anyways.

    Alexa, tell me something please...

    I'm wondering as what you identify politicall speaking?

    It is just,...

    I am truely astounded by your complete failure to grasp the concept of "personal responsibility".

    I was always under the impression, than when a man or woman without any academic degree to speak of, and that doesn't speak the national language of his or her country of residence -- will not have a comfortable lifestyle. In our respective socities, he or she will be able to have a filled stomach every day, running water, electricity, a table and set of chairs, a television set and a coffee maker (...).

    It bloody speaks for itself that he or she will not be able to live a middle class lifestyle.

    :disbelief:

    Again, I never, ever (!), advocated to stop citizens of receiving medical care based on their ethnicity. Please, stop making things up about me.

    Nothing more than empty rethoric on your part, Alexa.

    Enormously little Belgian women are circumcized, yet we somehow banned that too. Probably something you are unhappy about, or deem "xenophobic" as well.

    [...]

    Sorry, but I'm not taking you serious anymore. Now I'm a "white supremacist".

    Yeah, I'm a Youssou'N'Dour-listening, Bossa-Nova-lover, Couscous-eating white supremacist. :roll:

    Although, I'd like to pick out following segment:

    First of all, now it somehow has become acceptable to compare people with Breivik if they point out the reality on the ground. I think it speaks for itself that countries like Germany, Turkey, Argentina or South Korea are clearly superior than countries like Mali, Syria, Saudi-Arabia or Bangladesh.

    Cultural racism? Never heard something so ridiculous like that!

    Secondly -- again, I truely find your complete failure of understanding the concept of "personal responsibility" astounding. We do provide all sorts of education to people who apply for citizenship. In return for that citizenship they are asked to put in an effort themselves to lift themselves up socio-economically speaking whilst receiving a firm and steady helping hand from the rest of society. In your worldview, it seems you like to give them a test and put all of the answers on the back side.

    Faithfully yours,

    A white supremacist. :cynic:
     
  13. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    Iolo , my champion , this is an area where your mind and soul have been scorched -- perhaps crisped .
    It was not like that at all .
    Margaret was no intellectual . She had no comprehension of the City as an idea or its potential .
    She could not care a fig for class war because it did not resonate with her bases, which were her Dad and his business , her husband' advice , based on his outstanding success , and figures like Keith Joseph who gave her simple personal views a credible background of apparent respectability .
    Margaret only got as far as very simple thoughts :--

    We can only make what we can sell at a profit
    We need to stop spending when we have not earned enough to pay for more

    She was no more clever and political than that .
    The rest floated over her , whilst she just kept plugging the simple stuff which she related to and felt she understood .
    The rest is bollocks .
    Our Margaret had charisma , a simple message and the sincerity of a simple person . She was neither clever or duplicitous .
    Tragically she had no sense of humour and was not savvy . She had no more real idea of ordinary life than my cat .
    And , of course , sincerity backed up with little else always has a short life .
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, if you had read what I said I was suggesting a generalised Belgium opinion. I do not think you are the person who told me that. I made clear it was not you yourself I was talking about so I am afraid it is you, yourself who is lying.

    Ok. I was giving you information I was given previously by another Belgium who said all your criminals were Muslims and citizens and that you wanted to take away their citizenship and deport them so let me ask you something, if there is, as there clearly is or he would not have said, a desire to deport people who actually are citizens who commit crimes, why does Belgium not deport half of it's prison population who are not even citizens instead of having to pay for their upkeep. All countries with people who are not citizens have a choice - a sentence or deportation. Why on earth are you paying for the upkeep of half your prison population if they are not Belgium. Now that is a legitimate strain of your resources.

    How on earth do you anyway manage to have half of the people in your jails non Belgium. I am sure this must be the highest rate in the world. :shock:

    and what has set off this little rant?

    Yes you did. I have given you the quotes before.

    You choose what is a crime in any country to typify your immigrant population when this behaviour only occurs in people who come from particular clans who have been doing this for the past 2000 years. That is who you identify your entire immigrant population with. That is how you claim your superiority. You are a cultural racist. On that I have no doubt. As I said later you may or may not be a WS but you are declaring your cultural racism more with every utterance - the saddest part is that you do not even know it.




    I wasn't suggesting you were about to do a mass murder. It was related to your excusing your welfare chauvinism and how that showed your cultural racism. I read his manifesto. Your whole way of speaking reminded me of it. You are either unaware you are like this or trying to pretend you are dumb. Which I do not know.

    Countries are not people. Your thinking that all people in a particular country or of a particular religion are inferior is your cultural racism.

    time to get to know yourself then ;) ...Although I was reading an article in Open Democracy today which believes it is all still same of

    I have the article at hand so you can have a look http://www.opendemocracy.net/cas-mudde/new-new-radical-right-spectre-and-reality

    If you invite people to become citizens when they do not understand the language then you have a responsibility to teach them it so that they can have an opportunity to achieve.

    http://siteresources.worldbank.org/...SP-Discussion-papers/Labor-Market-DP/0807.pdf

    You need to understand that personal responsibility applies to yourself to. If you accept people into your country and particularly people with low skills which almost 50% of the immigrants Belgium takes are
    http://siteresources.worldbank.org/...SP-Discussion-papers/Labor-Market-DP/0807.pdf

    you then need to provide the opportunity for them to acquire the skills necessary. You brought them it is your responsibility to make them feel at home so look to your own backyard first.

    I also note you have provided no source to prove that foreigners are misusing your health service and stealing your money.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/western-europe/235394-why-do-europeans-vote-left-11.html

    You fail to see how making such accusations which you cannot back up shows your cultural racism and your talk of 'foreigners' in this way, shows your xenophobia
     
  15. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    Learn how to be less dramatic , general and vague , and dogmatic .
    You ruin your case and lose your audience whenever fantasy takes over .
    Make an occasional cake .
     
  16. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have never since I came onto this site, once, made any intelligent input so I suggest you butt out.
     
  17. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    Dear Alexa,

    You really need to come out of your Ivory Tower.

    Cultural racism... :wtf:

    Holy geepers!

    I'd like to quote my former Nigerian brother-in-law just before boarding the flight back to Belgium after his marriage with my oldest sister: "I'm never returning to this monkey-land ever again".

    Enough said.
     
  18. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    So we made some guns and young Mark sold them in New Guinea.
     
  19. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    Fred , You seem to be embittered about something . What's upsetting you?
    See the good and the positive in this country and smile .
    On another day you could have been born American , and that would have been a life disadvantage that would have haunted you each waking day
    ;);)
     
  20. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    I respond to people in exactly the same way I find them .
    So I guess you have quite a lot of soul searching to do . Why not have a break at Saga and return fresh and invigorated ? And don't forget that cake .
     
  21. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    Was he referring to Nigeria or Belgium?

    Don't worry about Alexa . It is probably that sensitive time of the month and she does try her best .
     
  22. parker

    parker New Member

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    Why is it the unions fault that the coal mine is losing money?

    If it isn't the unions fault then your entire argument is invalid.
     
  23. Munqi

    Munqi New Member

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    a) they wanted to keep mines going while thatcher wanted to close them and b) they demanded higher wages even though the mines were loosing money.
     
  24. fredc

    fredc New Member

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    Yes you can and many countries do. The coal mines didn't have to make a profit, they belonged to the people so while the mines sold coal cheap the people bought cheap coal, gas and electricity. British industry, like the steel industry could compete on the world market giving Britain valuable exports.

    What was important was that the British miner got a fair day's pay for a fair day's work and he wasn't.

    Maybe you think we should go back to the Capitalist system of slave labour in British mines?

    http://www.mininginstitute.org.uk/papers/slavery.html
     
  25. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    We could buy Coal from East Germany and Romania cheaper than we could produce it in our own mines .
    It reached a point where we had no industry , and increasing wages just worsened the position .
    Who owned the industry was irrelevant -- money could not be made .
     

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