Why doesn't socialism work?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Le Chef, Feb 25, 2020.

  1. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    We've all seen the long lines for toilet paper and the empty store shelves in every single socialist country in history. (I don't mean capitalist countries like Denmark with a large safety net, taxpayer funder medical care, and education).

    What I don't know, due to my ignorance of economics, is why exactly you end up with those long lines for basic consumer goods in places like Venezuela, Cuba, the USSR, etc. If they can produce weapons, can't they make toilet paper?
     
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  2. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    Venezuela,Cuba and the U.S.S.R are and were all military dictatorship no resemblance to socialist governments.
     
  3. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    Because socialism is really communism. Communists always pretend to be something else to get the people to turn over.power. Then they turn on the people. Never fails.
     
  4. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Well-Known Member

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    Socialism doesn't work because it denies the basic principles of human nature.

    The truth of the matter is that government cannot make the world a better place. Only people CHOOSING to behave better makes the world a better place.

    People being basically selfish and evil choose not to make the world better.
    People are lazy so they don't work hard. People are greedy so they keep what they get for themselves.

    Want to make the world a better place, work hard even if you aren't rewarded for it.

    Share when you can even if your generosity isn't recieved with gratefulness..

    That is how you make the world a better place.
     
  5. Le Chef

    Le Chef Well-Known Member Donor

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    So you're saying military dictatorships can't make toilet paper?
     
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  6. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    Because all men and women are not created equally and giving power to a select group of corrupt oligarchs is how a nation dies .
    Some people will always rise over the lesser ones and making them all equal is how you turn USA into USSR
     
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  7. StillBlue

    StillBlue Well-Known Member

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    Cuba's socialism has given it a population with a higher literacy rate than the US and a far higher doctor to patient ratio. Their economy would boom if allowed to. Medical tourism for example would bring huge revenues that would allow them to import toilet paper for example. But it is an embargoed nation that has limited trading partners and those it has also lack toilet paper. Who knows how far they could go with a market socialism (think capitalism but with strong unions) if they could trade with their rich neighbor.
     
  8. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Centralized planning results in a single point of failure which is why it doesn't work.

    Social Democracies have abandoned that concept and now only implement the positive aspects of socialism and leave the production and delivery of toilet paper and goods on shelves to well regulated capitalist corporations instead.

    This COMPROMISE results in the BEST of BOTH Socialism AND Capitalism.
     
  9. Marine1

    Marine1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Things aren't all that great with socialism in Europe either. We just get little news over there, like how they hide their problems with Muslim refugees.

    Austerity and the Unraveling of European Universal Health Care
    A great human disaster is now unfolding in the Eurozone countries that have agreed to slash spending, wages, and living standards. One facet of this story that has received too little attention is the effect of these measures on the health of these nations. https://www.dissentmagazine.org/.../austerity-and-the...



    Why France's 'unsustainable' pension system may well be ...www.france24.com › Return to homepage › Business
    Dec 23, 2019 - A protest in Paris against French President Emmanuel Macron's ... Suspicions that the government is hell-bent on reducing the pension bill, .
     
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  10. Marine1

    Marine1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "After spending years living in socialist Germany and exploring all over Europe, what is striking is that, even in one of the wealthiest non-U.S. Places on Earth, it is all about learning to do without."


    Let’s examine the facts:


    "There is a crushing 20% sales tax on everything. There is also a TV tax, a radio tax, a dog tax, a death tax of up to 50%, and every other kind of tax you could possibly imagine…for a grand total of about 60-65% of your income (unless you have already been brutalized into poverty by this system, in which case you get welfare)".

    “Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.” –Ronald Reagan

    -There is no such thing as Central Air…people just suffer through the heat, and freeze in the Winter with these dinky little radiator-heaters (which is all most people can afford, due to staggering government utility costs).

    -Gasoline is usually $7-10 per gallon (about 1.50 Euros per liter as I write this), due to the government’s insanely aggressive taxes on fuel.

    -People usually cannot afford 15 or even 30-year mortgages…they often must get 50-year mortgages to purchase a home (government makes housing astronomically expensive).

    -Consumers are 100% disregarded, given total crap for options, and complaints over terrible service are completely ignored.

    -It takes six hours to do half a load of laundry (government forces people to use these tiny, ‘environmentally-friendly’ laundry machines).

    -Showers are the size of phone booths, water heaters are often woefully inadequate, and all water services cost an absolute fortune.

    -Closets do not exist. The only thing you can do to store and organize your clothing is to purchase a huge, bulky piece of furniture called a “wardrobe” for every bedroom, which leaves you with very little actual living space in the already incredibly tiny homes Europeans must deal with.

    -You can’t wash your own car in your own driveway. That might hurt the environment, so you must take your vehicle to a government-approved car wash and wildly overpay someone else to do it for you.

    -Even the “big,” “Americanized” trash bins hold no more than a wastebasket of garbage…for two weeks of waste (no matter how many people live in your home). If the can is overflowing, they will not take your garbage, and every single item is required by law to be organized into separate color-coded recycling bags.

    -You cannot even name your own child without government approval. There is literally an agency you must register with upon giving birth that decides whether or not your child’s name is acceptable to the government.

    -Gun rights do not exist. The only way to get access to any firearms whatsoever is through a jaw-droppingly extreme permit/licensing process that involves taking elaborate tests, paying fees, and proving to the government you have a “legitimate” reason for wanting a gun (hunting, target shooting, etc.).

    And even if you do manage to jump through all the hoops required to get a gun, you can still only keep it if you regularly verify to the government that you are actively using it for the purpose you listed, or it will be confiscated."



    -Hunting and fishing also require an insane process of government-mandated training, tests, fees, licenses, permits and endless other restrictions.


    -Having extreme views is illegal. Being a Neo-Nazi is a crime, as is questioning the Holocaust, or anything that could possibly be construed as “hate speech” by the left. Flipping someone off is also a criminal offense.

    -It costs thousands of dollars to get a license, own a car, and pay for the more than $1 million of auto insurance you are forced to carry…and there are speed cameras everywhere, and there is no gray area (my boss couldn’t even get out of a ticket from when he sped his wife to the hospital to give birth).

    -Nearly two-thirds of YouTube’s top 1,000 videos have been banned in Germany due to the fanatical German Journalists’ Union (DJV) absurdly demanding that artists be paid for each and every video that in any way uses any part of their music–even if it is just some random user having part of some random song on in the background of their video.

    -Company web sites are usually primitive and have inaccurate/outdated information, while almost no one answers their phone and you are forced to show up repeatedly during (often ridiculously narrow) operating hours to get the simplest product or service. Germans only work 36-39 hours per week, and the French have a 35-hour work week.

    It goes on and on, and on.

    Democrats, who used to absolutely crucify people for pointing out their socialist ideas and beliefs, now openly defend this disastrous, time-disproven ideology (see deregulation and lower taxes in China in the 1980s, in India in the 1990s, in Ireland in the early 2000s, and the left’s class warfare insanity that destroyed the US economy in 2008) as it punishes success, rewards failure, and lures self-reliant individuals into total nanny state dependence through handouts.


    https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/heres-what-life-in-socialist-europe-is-really-like


    Usually, they try to justify it by arguing that Europe has superior, more affordable education and health care (as if freedom were irrelevant and all that mattered was being better-maintained cattle). But when you actually live there, you can’t help but notice that there is more to the story…as when you discover that you have to pay a small fortune to get your kids through grade school. Or that you still have to pay through the nose for insurance every month, cover all your own prescription costs, and sit on waiting lists to see a “free” doctor.


    The bottom line: The only difference between the nanny state socialist control freaks of Europe and the ruthless Third World tyrants they condemn, is that in Europe, they bankrupt, impoverish, and enslave people through the charade of voting, as opposed to at gun point…to maintain the appearance of legitimacy.

    Think about that next time you’re sitting in the lap of luxury listening to Democrats talk about how well socialism works.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  11. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    It's got nothing to do with economics and everything to with the underlying assumptions about humanity. For socialism to work human beings, especially those in charge, must be completely selfless. They must also be omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent. Because they are none of those socialist systems almost always begin to unravel in fairly short order in historical terms. Depending on how ruthless those in charge are you can paper over the inherent problems for a while by blaming others for the problems and dystopian effects the system creates. As Maduro's supporters currently do in Venezuela.
     
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  12. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Socialism doesn't work because everyone cannot live at the expense of everyone else.
     
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  13. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    According to Stalin, communism is the goal of socialism.
     
  14. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know why some folks have such difficulty acknowledging the difference between socialism and communism. Communism runs on a central government that owns the means of production and and controls distribution. Central planning creates imbalances in supply and demand. Regular market forces aren't allowed to operate.

    Socialism and socialistic systems can run the gamut but none control the islands of production. nor do they seek too control or plan supply and demand. Markets are free to operate and set supply and demand. Socialistic societies establish large safety nets like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, universal health coverage, progressive taxation, free college, and numerous other social programs beneficial to society.

    With exception of the United States, The rest of the G-7 have universal health care, some have broader social programs like child care, paid leave, four week vacations, etc.
     
  15. Wulfschilde

    Wulfschilde Member

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    The reasons it doesn’t work are pretty subtle IMHO but a lot of them can be understood through anecdotes.

    First, management and labor are two different skill sets and one is usually more intellectual than the other, so anyone who wants the laborers to be in charge has failed to understand something basic about how the human mind and brain works.

    Second, a lot of luxury items are only superficially valuable. Trying to equalize access to such things can only, in the best case scenario, devalue them. To even try and equalize access to something that was only valuable in the first place because it was exclusive reveals an oxymoron since if you want it equalized, you must value it, yet again, its value only lied in its exclusivity to begin with, so all you’ve really done is ruin it for everyone. I believe this is why communist economies so often collapse down to the bare necessities, they can’t accept the cycle they’ve fallen into for what it is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  16. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Well-Known Member

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    Socialism does not work because it was never designed, nor intended, to actually work.
     
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  17. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Exactly backwards. Under communism there is ultimately no government and everything is held in common. Socialism is state ownership of the means of production. This is economics 101.
     
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  18. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Considering that the US now has a GDP to debt ratio of about 105%, I’m not sure our Capitalist system is going to work in the long run either.

    Greed spells disaster for all systems of government over the course of history. That has more to do with human nature than the system of government.
     
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  19. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    -This is what you end up with when you have a pure majority rules democracy. You get to vote yourself access to other peoples money and determine the laws that suit your preference of lifestyle.
     
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  20. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    The more socialism in the US, the more power for people like Hunter Biden. You think making him richer and more powerful will help the working class? But ultimately, Socialism fails because it is not based upon real economic science but on the fantasy of despicable bums like Kark Marx. Imagine: a despicable bum like Marx envisioned a financial systems where he will simply live off of others.
     
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  21. struth

    struth Well-Known Member

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    In correct. Socialism is when the Govt runs and owns the means of production. Communism is beyond that, where there is no state. We have never seen Communism, because the human nature of man, and why socialism always false
     
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  22. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    The reason socialism fails is because it removes the profit motive to work. And the shortage of supplies is due to the government ordering the impossible, like sell goods and services below the price it takes to make those objects. So, private industry is unsustainable.
     
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  23. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Well-Known Member

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    Well socialism is the abolishment of private industry. It's assumed by socialists that people will work hard even without incentive. Because they are just good people trying to create utopia. A stupid person's pipe dream yes I'm calling Carl Marx stupid.
     
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  24. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    That said, I think the USA might have had more social programs a long time ago if the Soviet Union and the red scare never happened.
     
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  25. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you listen to today's media you might think that today's Dem position of a few new social programs is socialism. So, I guess we need to identify which socialism we're talking about.
     
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