why dont we just pray our way out of all problems?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by galant, Dec 2, 2014.

  1. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Heck if God was a wish dispensing machine I would not be living where I am living and I would be driving a brand new Corvette... but sadly I have found that God is not.
     
  2. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    As it says, you have exactly what you need. If you wanted those things then you would have gotten them.

    2 Corinthians 8:15 (HCSB) = "As it has been written:The person who gathered much
    did not have too much,
    and the person who gathered little
    did not have too little."

     
  3. Defender of Freedom

    Defender of Freedom Member

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    There is suffering because there is evil, and it is up to us to be generous and to be caring for those people. These tragidies bring out the greater good, which is why so many churches do missions to these countries to help these people. Would you care to tell me how many atheist groups have done this? I believe God gives us motivation to help others, to spread his word and his mercy upon those who suffer.
     
  4. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    There is pain, suffering and death because these are aspects of Nature.

    NOTHING could justify a GREATER GOOD especially the suffering pain, anguish and deaths of the innocent especially KIDS.

    If there was a GOD who had a PLAN and this was part of such a GOD'S PLAN....such a GOD would be EVIL.

    AboveAlpha
     
  5. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    That is a pretty petty and hateful statement. Indicative of Atheists.....tad bit high schoolish, definately noting of mockery type and doesnt' really say anything. What exactly was your point again?
     
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    this god was cobbled together at a time when women and children were virtually worthless in their own right, and merely a means to an end. plus, all life was dirt cheap then, even male lives. they could only write a god who was like them but more so. since we were cruel and primitive bustards in those days, god ended up the motherlode of cruel and primitive.

    meantime it's interesting that you mention cruelty and suffering being simply nature. I would submit that nature is far less cruel than were humans in the days the bible was thrown together. apparently the suffering dispensed by nature wasn't enough.
     
  7. domer76

    domer76 New Member

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    You'll never convince me that any god that allows innocent children to suffer and die horrible deaths is any kind of merciful, loving god.

    As for evil:

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God. ....Epicurus
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    there is suffering because there is suffering. you can blame it on a naughty cavern-dwelling pixie if you want, but doing so helps no one. obviously we must do all they can to alleviate the suffering of our fellows (and the planet - equally if not more important), but we ought to do so without agenda beyond the satisfaction of directing our energies outward instead of inward. spreading stories about a naughty pixie in the centre of the earth and his nemesis in the clouds, is not going to alleviate suffering, and may well add to it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    it remains the great mystery - how they convince themselves. unless they really do think that because a serial killer occasionally hugs his mom, or helps an old lady across the road, he's a great guy.
     
  9. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    Yes...and this is how we know that Religious Texts and Books were not written by a GOD.

    Only Man could write something that F@%#ED UP!

    AboveAlpha
     
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    the trip point is that it's GOD, so they stuck with him as is. it's laughable, really. they had to make their own trip point to prevent people running away screaming (to the nearest Buddhist temple :p )
     
  11. Defender of Freedom

    Defender of Freedom Member

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    Many of these events are indeed caused by nature, and you use this to turn it against God. However, there are two forces at work in the battle for the souls of man, Good and Evil, God and the devil. Such disasters make man question God's existence or whether or not he is truly good, which is good for the devil, and evil wins. On the other hand, most people (Americans and Christians especially) will come to the aid of those in need, to bring hope back into their lives. It is our free will that brings the good of God. A common saying among those of Faith is "God works in strange ways", I believe it is meant to say that God often prefers to work indirectly to bring good to the world. You may see it as little more than generosity, but I see it as more than that. I see it as God's way to bring mercy and compassion to those in need and to those who are helpless. But who am I to know the mind of God? I do not truly know of his intentions and others of my faith may disagree with me because none of us know his plan, but strength in faith will guide us on the right path.
     
  12. Defender of Freedom

    Defender of Freedom Member

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    I do not think I can convince you of the existence of God, I can try but I am not the man to do so nor am I obligated to do so. Evil is found in the wrongful choices of man, those choices God can control but will not do so because that is not faith. I do not think God works directly, rather indirectly. His people and his followers wish to be the bringers of good in the world. For the choices of man and the battle for their souls is always in play.
     
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    it sometimes works.. read my signature
     
  14. Defender of Freedom

    Defender of Freedom Member

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    I blamed evil on man, for it is his free will that often results in evil. The Devil is in play for the souls of man, making him doubt the existence of him or of God. In this way he has persuaded you to such thinking, but I digress. I do not see how it has added to the suffering of others as church donations and missions from all denominations have alleviated suffering across the globe, even as recently as the border crisis we had a few months back. God motivates these people to do this, answers their prayers for strength so that they may continue to help others.
    - - - Updated - - -



    Not sure how this pertains to the subject. Also seems quite bigoted, just saying
     
  15. DarkDaimon

    DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

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    But did you sacrifice a surf board to gain his holy favor?
     
  16. cassandrabandra

    cassandrabandra New Member

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    its not necessarily true that tragedies bring out the greater good. The impact of many tragedies on individuals leads to ongoing suffering long after the event, and can also inflict intergenerational trauma for those who were not even born at the time. Tragedies that occur can also contribute to major social and political disruption, leading to instability which can be the breeding ground for further troubles on the people of a region.

    it is however true that some tragedies do bring out the best in people, but this is peripheral to the harm that results.

    but I think its a bit ... unprincipled to look at tragedies from a distance and argue they bring out the greater good.

    there are plenty of organisations that are not church based that are involved in international aid. Many people working in these organisations are probably atheists, and in fact some people I know working for some of the larger church based groups are not even nominally christian.

    these are groups that do not go into an area using aid as a vehicle for proselytising.
     
  17. DarkDaimon

    DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

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    This has always been my biggest sticking point with Christianity. If God in omniscient and omnipotent, why did He create Satan in the first place or why doesn't He just make Satan disappear?
     
  18. cassandrabandra

    cassandrabandra New Member

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    Thats a good question. My suspicion is because the abrahamic god, like other gods before him, needed to have a counterpoint so that there could be balance in the universe ...

    it could have been incorporated into the one being, but the externalisation of evil forces seems pretty common as a human trait.
     
  19. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    I personally have no problems with a person who believes in a GOD or believes in a specific religion as long as they are not hurting anyone.

    And I certainly don't go around telling people what they should or should not believe on the street nor would I even go DOOR TO DOOR like Evangalists or Witnesses do and try to force my beliefs upon others.

    But this is a Debate Forum and it has a specific topic.

    You posted this to me and I quote..."Many of these events are indeed caused by nature, and you use this to turn it against God."...end quote Defender of Freedom.

    I was simply talking about REALITIES IN NATURE....they are NOT subjective nor are the in any way an Ideology...they just...are.

    Now if you feel that posting FACTS and REALITIES such as what I have posted is somehow being used to turn...IT...whatever IT is...against a GOD.....well then if your FAITH is such a GOD cannot stand up to simple REALITIES OF NATURE....perhaps you need to do some reassessing.

    One of the biggest mistakes that any Human Being can make is to ASSUME.

    You posted...."But who am I to know the mind of God?"......and..."I do not truly know of his intentions."......well...perhaps you SHOULD KNOW WHAT THIS SUPPOSED GOD'S INTENTIONS ARE because I have got to tell you...if there is a GOD...and this PLAN....is the best this GOD'S got....it's time we started looking for a better GOD!!

    AboveAlpha
     
  20. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    My word, and I have the scar to prove it.
     
  21. Ozymandis

    Ozymandis New Member

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    These kinds of threads don't illustrate profound problems with Christianity, they illustrate profound ignorance of Christianity. I look at them, and I just cringe at the lack of understanding, mixed with hatred. It's like someone took all of their spite toward something they had almost no understanding of, and came up with the dumbest insult they could. If I can illustrate, this thread looks a bit like this:

    If modern medicine is so great, then why don't we just cure death?

    If math is so great, then why don't I just multiply my bank account?

    If astronomy is so great, then why don't we just make a new planet better than Earth?

    My reaction is a mixture of humor and grief. Humor because the person who asks these types of questions is so ignorant it's funny, but I feel grief because I know they have no desire to actually comprehend the topic, this time, of prayer. Such a wonderful powerful thing, but to an outsider, it makes no sense.

    Prayer isn't some kind of Omnipotent Staple's "easy button". You know that though, and so do the Christians who tell you otherwise. Unfortunately, there are many of them. Pray for this or that, and watch your life get easier. No no. It's so much simpler than that, and you can tell it is, by reading the prayers in the Bible. Yes, people do request things of God, but that's not really the main point, more of an aside. The main point is to dedicate oneself to God, through finding out what He wants, and then expressing gratitude for His will. This goes all the way back to the prophets of the OT. It's kind of sad, and I'm sure the devil loves this, but it's kind of sad that modern bumper sticker Christianity has reduced God to a goodies dispenser, ready to be mocked by trolls. Lovely.

    You can't understand being grateful for God's will, until you submit to it. How can you be grateful for something you don't have? Try to understand what God's will is, before you try to understand gratitude for it.
     
  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Ya, but it doesn't require an imaginary second party.
     
  23. DarkDaimon

    DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

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    A profound ignorance of Christianity is better than a profound ignorance of science.
     
  24. JOJO50

    JOJO50 New Member

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    I’m sorry but that's not totally true, prayer does work, IF... it's in harmony with God will ,(1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us). Also it depends on who one's praying to. Though many believe there are plenty of Gods. There ONLY one TRUE God, just as there's one true lord ,(1Cor. 8:5,6). Jehovah God doesn't hear ANY pray from one who prays for death of another. Nor does he hear selfish prayers,(“make me rich, send me a pretty girl” ,etc.). not even stupid prayers like “lord let my team win or help me to sing good so I can receive an award”. NONE of these are according to his will. Now he doesn't answer MANY prayers at the time one is praying. But he will when he feel the time is right. I've personally prayed not for material things and my prayers were answered.

    I remember when I was in field service with some sisters. we were trying to pass this house down the hill which had three viciously barking dogs. Who kept coming halfway up the hill, We all froze in place. I looked around thinking just turn back, Then I heard a brother yell to us just stand still. He came towards and passed us, stood at the top of the hill looking down at the dogs. I know for a fact he said a prayer to Jehovah in Jesus name. Because we know on his own, he would be nothing. Those dogs ran down the hill they barked!, but they didn't come back up that hill. After about I guess 30 seconds, he told us to come on by. And he stood there until we got down the road, then he went back in the other direction. So again, God does answer many prayers even though many refuse to believe. peace :smile:
     
  25. domer76

    domer76 New Member

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    "Free wIll" is a copout for theists to excuse their supposedly omniscient and omnipotent god to allow evil in this world.
     

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